User talk:Stevertigo/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions about User:Stevertigo. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Archive 4

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Well, I wouldn't call it pestering but I have left him a message about it [1]. It looks almost busy over at Simple today. Angela

Woodblock image

Hey, thanks for adding the Kuniyoshi image (although I have to say it's not one of his better prints, alas). One question, though - that's an awfully big file for such a little image. The thumbnails I make of woodblock prints which are that size are usually about 30KB, not 100KB. For 100KB, you should be able to get something much bigger (the prints have large areas of a single colour, so they compress really well). Noel 04:32, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Alas, I haven't figured out how to upload picures yet. Too busy writing text! I don't think I have software to create that other format anyway. I generall don't have a problem getting JPEG's of prints to be quite small - I just turn up the compression level on my image software, and I can get e.g. a 300x400 pixel 24-bit colour image to be only 20KB - i.e. better than 20:1 on the uncompressed one. So I don't really see the point of another format anyway... Noel 21:30, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

vote for undeletion

Please undelete Wikipedia Case User:RK - it has most of the history of user talk:RK/ban - see wikipedia:votes for undeletion. Martin 16:01, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

er, steve, your move of a page to Wikipedia case user:RK is in main article namespace... -- Tarquin 17:26, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It was nothing to do with content. The author's comments and threats on the Talk:Israel page are of a nature that if he as a user had an ID they would be banned. I have reported their behaviour and in view of their behaviour, they should to be treated as a vandal, with their contributions automatically reverted. If the user has an sense he will realise by having that done that his behaviour is well beyond the limits of what is acceptable by anyone on wiki and if he wants to contribute, start working rather than threatening people. But until he corrects his behaviour, he should be treated as a vandal, whose work, like other vandals, is reverted on sight, irrespective of content or quality, whereever it is. As wiki has found in the past with similar abusive extremists doing that is the only way to get it through to this character that either he amends his conduct or he leaves, whether through banning or his decision, with anything he contributes RoS. Hopefully it will get him to cop on and stop behaving like an asshole. If he stops arsing around and issuing threats, I'll have no hesitation in restating his commentary. As I said, its removal had nothing to do with the contents and everything to do with the behaviour of its author. FearÉIREANN 20:31, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Missing

Your cryptogram Wikipedia:Missing Wikipedians is not for me. KF, High-class masseur

Would be more appropriate on the Meta - m:Missing Wikipedians. Angela
- I just realised that it already is on the Meta: m:Wikipedia drop-outs. Hasn't been updated since April last year though. I'm wondering whether I should add myself. I'm not sure I agree with a lot of what's going on here anymore, but on the other hand I'm wondering whether I should let it bother me. Angela

Dydw i ddim yn siarad Cymraeg. Angela

re: Dydw i dim dy difalch gwas? - あなたが話すことができない言語があるか。私は控え目でない- 私は実際にウェールズを話さない。You would probably be able to sort out the m:LanguageCy.php better than I would. Angela

Pay Attention

I just moved the "grass" page to Poaceae Family Poaceae a few days ago. I am trying to achieve some consistency in the botanical treatments by not relying on sometimes outdated and generally always inprecise common names. Please do not move things around to a lower level of organization. - Marshman 06:19, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I'm useless at quitting. :) Couldn't stay away. I like the missing Wikipedians page though. Angela

What is the question that can not be asked?

Silly me: Is it: "Can I go to the bathroom?" Or is it something else? -- Cimon Avaro on a pogostick 02:59, Oct 23, 2003 (UTC)

I didn't really take a vacation. I just edited under a pseudonym. I suppose that's cheating really. Angela

I'm flattered, but you're not supposing to be doing that.

See Wikipedia:Announcements#July_29th,_2003 and [2]. ;) Angela

I don't think an SQL query would tell you those things. Did it give you any results? Angela

Thought it might be! :)

Wikipedia Query log

Second the question about "question that cannot be asked" - I'm curious now, too! :-) Noel 20:12, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Deadline

Well, it's August 28 in Germany. I'll specify a UTC the next time.—Eloquence 02:13, Aug 28, 2003 (UTC)

You broke the paper trail I've been asked to provide. Can you undelete and turn into a Wikipedia redirect to meta? Martin 09:03, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

键入您的文本这里。

Enters your text here. ??
Am I missing something in the translation? Angela

Well probably not, but I've protected my pages now. You might want to help RickK with User:Rikke if you're around as I'm going to sleep now. Thanks for your concern! :) Angela 03:29, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

WikiWhiteboard

Hi Stevertigo, I just got your comment on my blog re. SVG Whiteboard. I'll be happy to help if I can.

You might also be interested in is what I've got in mind for the Wiki code I'm working on. I plan to generate RDF metadata from all pages - most of this will be from the RSS 1.0 vocabulary, but I'll also have to create some custom terms (like "WikiWord"). Basically provide machine-readable data about the knowledge contained in the Wiki. This would (IMHO) be a wonderful extension for the Wikipedia, for example, where appropriate entries in the Wikipedia could be automatically cross-referenced with WordNet and dmoz entries. Putting it on the Semantic Web is a nice visionary thing too.

As with the WikiWhiteboard, the implementation would be different (I'm primarily using Java, though I think Eugene's version is in Perl), but the RDF-specific parts would be the same in the same way that the SVG parts can stay the same across Wikis.

Cheers, Danny.

danny666@virgilio.it

Sounds about right. But it's the weekend, I can make up my own time zone. I might go to bed soon but who needs sleep when you have Wikipedia? :) I think I may have been editing whilst asleep earlier. I went round putting VfD notices on stubs instead of stub notices! Angela

Sorry to hear that. I shall take your advice. Goodnight. Angela

fait de beaux rèves...zzzz

It is called ham Steve :-) You know, it is a piece of meat from this wonderful animal called pig. Raised in a good farm, with proper food, space and love. Bought in a local farmers' market, brought back home with pain (it is heavy), usually sliced in a special machine doing paper thin slices. One may appreciate its flavors with melon, fig and a good potato and onions salad. Plus of course, a good wine from the south of France. The wine is costing a decent number of hours of my work. We put that knife on the table mostly for the picture, but use it for extremities. The knife is actually from the US. The piece of cloth on the table is a rather typical design from the south of france. Sunflowers, olives and insects. We finished the ham two weeks ago with local lentils cooked with bacon and red wine. I have lost only 3 pounds in my nearly 3 weeks diet. Dinner tonight is vegetable soup plus vapor-cooked potato. That is tough !!!!!!!!!!!

Well its kinda gruesome looking--belies the beauty of the beautiful flowaz. Good luck with "the diet." As someone familiar with eating, and eating habits --:Id like to (ifI may) point out that the term "diet" is best thought of in the wholistic sense--not that you are on "a diet" (even the Round Table Pizza man is on "a diet"), rather that you have decided to make changes to your overall "diet." Eating less meat is certainly a way to do that, but you need to be realistic. Forget the weight thing--its not a good enough reason to mess with your cycles, and your body will disagree with you. Less meat really means less heavy and hard to digest material to sap your body's energy with. -Sincerely

Na. A good ham is beautiful to look at for me. Just bying it is a pleasure (except for the price). It is something one does not buy to eat alone in front of tv (anyway, I have no tv), but rather in good company, with friends. Eating is not just filling one self, it is also a social act. And eating a real ham, not plastic stuff, definitly is part of it. Very important.

And yes, you are right, I am not on "a" diet. I am trying to change eating habits, at least for a while. Less meat, less milk products, less alcohol, less fats, less easy to eat sweet things. I do not expect real weight loss, perhaps miserably 6 pounds. I expect to be able to stay in the same clothes for another season (I do not like shopping, it is boring, expensive and frustrating), expect to get rid of my teenage pimples before I am a grand mother, expect not to fall asleep in front of my computer at work on afternoon, or in my car because of digestion, and to have sweet dreams at night. In short, privilege quality over quantity. That is enough reasons to make an effort :-) Don't you think ?

And...Dr S., I have a problem related to "academic standards kick", except it does not express toward anonymous vandals, but toward rather known and recognised experts. I exaggerate the problem related to their expertise to monumental proportions, typically rejecting their technological measures. I lose touch with some core Wiki concept, such as respect, communication and kindness, to drift in irony and fall in meanness. What should I do ? Should I say... "I love you and I will do anything for you" to cure myself or do you think of another *more appropriate* method ?

I won't be blocking anyone. I've voluntarily given up my sysop rights, because there are too many people too willing to jump down my throat -- like you are doing now -- for doing what needs to be done. Your idea of what is and is not a copyvio is very interseting. RickK 04:29, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I don't know why you feel you need to attack me when all I'm trying to do is to maintain a useable Wikipedia, but your making personal attacks on me is not in the spirit of Wikilove, now is it? RickK 04:42, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Rewriting copyvios isn't necessarily a good idea. It may be best they are deleted before being rewirtten. I would provide a useful link but I am not awake. Wikipedia:Copyright violations on history pages or something like that. Be nice to RickK. I think he should still be a sysop. See WP:RFA. Thank you for those shortcut links. I can do those even when sleeping. Angela 06:13, Sep 11, 2003 (UTC)

No, not still up. Just got up. I did sleep. Look -definite gap in my contributions.

07:09, Sep 11, 2003 Jose Gervasio Artigas (wikify, minor corrections (and 2 edit conflicts))
04:12, Sep 11, 2003 Pornography (Reverted to last edit by Patrick) (top) [rollback]

That doesn't look good. Pornography being the last thing I edited before going bed! And an edit conflict first thing on waking up. Oh dear. Better go to work really...

Goodnight. Angela 07:22, Sep 11, 2003 (UTC)

Zaijian??? I hope I have mistranslated.

Heh. Thanks for the comment. Well, the first step is admitting you have a problem... mine's that I didn't score in the terminal range on the test (quite). ;) -- Jake 23:43, 2003 Sep 11 (UTC)

Steve, how do you get white text on a dark background in you browser, or did I misundertand your comment? I would like to know how to change that IAAL, but I don't know everything... Alex756 06:05, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

SteVe, Thanks for explaining the accessibility options, think someone whose father was visually impaired would know about these things. I did try Mozilla, but some evil Microsoft bug did something to my system after installing Mozilla and it was uninstalled or stopped functioning (is that possible) anyway, that laptop had a power supply problem that I have not been able to fix and I have not had a chance to install Mozilla on my other computer, another thing to add to my to do list! BTW, you comments on the mailing list were very thoughtful, sometimes when I make these copyright and defamation comments they seem to bounce off the walls with no response, it is good to know someone is listening and thinking about the same things besides LDan (who gives a very valid 13 year old POV). My desire is to have a thoughtful discussion on these topics so some community consensus can be reached at some point. Copyright policy is not an easy topic to discuss. Alex756 06:07, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Saw your comment on Talk:Hezbollah. Did you recently become born again, or something? Makes me worry... Graft 18:18, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

That's ok then! The only translation I could find of it was goodbye. That combined with the "I'm taking a break" comment on the Thomas Sutpen page led me to think you were leaving. Glad you're not. :) Angela 17:02, Sep 13, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks, although I don't if I should really be deciding what to delete in a language I don't speak! Angela 03:33, Sep 14, 2003 (UTC)

History of isis interactions

Hello

Could you point me to the pages where what happened to Isis is understandable to me. I remember having talked to her a couple of time; and the next thing I knew, she was gone. Several people, wanting to give a case example for an issue or two, cited her departure. But I never understood why she was gone.

I remember her once explaining to me, the translation of a copyrighted text still remained under copyright. This belief is widely rejected on the french wiki, where most consider that once translated a text is not protected any more. While I see Isis point very well as far as books are concerned (Harry Potter certainly is cp in french as well :-)), I still wonder over internet content. I don't directly translate, but many others do. And it is tricky, as somewhere is also said, it is not the idea that is cp, but only the way the idea is phrased. In another language, the idea is certainly phrased somehow differently.

Which were the legal traps she thought we could fell in ? Anthère

SteVe, thanks for the comment on the photo. I started reviewing Isis' various deleted pages, there is a lot of interesting information in those pages; most of the comments she made seemed quite knowledgeable about copyright law issues. I haven't quite figured out what flipped her out. Even if someone tells a lawyer they are wrong, they usually accept it, after all most lawyers in appellate court are being told there are wrong (or their clients) 50% of the time, they don't take it personally, after all they are just channeling the law, they don't own it; however sometimes one does burn out when people are always disagreeing with you, and it can effect one's judgment. I noted that on her deleted Wikipedia biography entry there was a statement about her being disciplined because she challenged the status quo; however her disciplinary proceedings do state that she was suspended for things like filing false deeds. This does not sound like a smear campaign by powerful judges, but not knowing the facts of the case I can not for a personal opinion regarding these things.

I am concerned that if we get into this in too much detail she may decide that our discussion of it is libelous. That was the nature of my comment on the Village Pump. It is certainly interesting, but perhaps keeping it vague until some graduate student in the 22nd century decides to write their Ph.D. thesis on the life cycle of Wikipedia volunteers is a good idea. At that point no one could sue for defamation as we will all be long gone. It will truly be history then. Alex756 17:35, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Hello

Re : User talk:BuddhaInside

I am puzzled by your comment on that page... Because you use "you". Who is the "you" ? You use you as if you were talking to this buddha, and you use you as if talking to the one asking that question ? Who is you ? Who are you answering to, is it an answer to me, or to this buddha, or to a general you ? Anthère

Unless you think I am this buddha ? Do you ? be logical Steve :-) Is he sysop ? How could he unprotect his page ? Sigh

No - you be "logical". This is exactly the reason why you should #*$(#( sign your name on comments, so you dont impose upon your fellow wikipedians to have to check the history just to see who the fuck wrote the thing. Its like living with someone who thinks its ok to just leave her dirty dishes and shit all over the place, expecting everyone to appreciate the nuisance. -戴&#30505sv 05:46, Sep 16, 2003 (UTC)

This is a good argument you make, but certainly not one that refers to logic, when mine does :-)

I put *many* sig in that talk page however, and second I was clearly commenting the fact that no one had commented the comment I made earlier, though the page had been protected once again. Well, if I clearly comment my comment, I guess it is me...no ?

perhaps no.

well, in any case, I don't appreciate you label my comments as being "shit". But I know that defending logical things for the account of an ostracized editor is bound to put ostracism on me as well.

offended

I apologise for my language. I do not apologise for the sentiments. Theres no excuse for not putting three of ~ in a row after you make a comment. It doesnt matter that the page "WAS" protected. It wasnt when I edited it, and there was no reason to doubt the possibility that BI could have then added the comment.

true. I however find it hard to be criticized for not putting enough ~, while I put three of them on that very comment, just forgetting the last one.

All of this is null -- the real issue is you then had to spike the ball my commenting on a comment that reasonably assumed who the anon writer was as BI-- and you have the nuts to call me illogical?

you are right that I should not have called you illogical the first time. I apologize. I think my "smiley" behind that comment was not BIG enough. I think I am gonna drop using smiley altogether. It does not make sense to use them if readers don't understand what they mean. To my opinion, communicating is not only adding statement words one after the others, just like "I ate salad at dinner", "I did not put a signature, sorry" or "I am going to work now", but should also convey sentiments as well. I know not why I appear not to be able to convey these properly. This escape me. Why do french people understand when I am smiling, that you do not ? What does the smiley means in your ...err...language ?

You're being illogical, using the word "logic" to try to seem more logical than you are--but you actually make about as much sense as any simple child who doesnt want to simply admit they are wrong, apologise for a mistake, or be considerate instead of obfuscating.戴&#30505sv

All this because I just wrote on your page that I was not sure who you were adressing that comment to. The first part I thought was to me, the last to this buddha. I am not sure it even is interesting that I mention I do not understand the paragraph above, but in truth I do not. That is one of these days I think it is useless I try to be here. To much escape me; and it seems to many people do not understand what I say. We may truely just go to simple english, and just try to communicate with 500 words; basic stuff. Perhaps is it the only way to avoid wars. But boy is it gonna be boring.

Anyway, you don't worry. I am not sure this buddha will come back, because someone took the care to point out to some mass behavior (I do not dare say illogical behavior even if I still consider it is). I am quite puzzled that no one take the time to comment on my comment

Don't feel even like signing

Bah ! never mind

Stevertigo, it's not helpful to write stubs in response to Requested Articles. I'm talking about David Hackworth. The point of Requested Articles is to get real articles; Wikipedia doesn't need any more stubs. IMHO if you aren't going to do a real article, you shouldn't bother doing a stub. Someone who knows more will come along and do it. Plus, your article wasn't even properly wikified. Chadloder 07:40, Sep 17, 2003 (UTC)

We're not talking about me and whether I'm a snob -- we're talking about the fact that you, as a sysop (aren't you?) should know better. Don't change the subject. Chadloder 15:29, Sep 17, 2003 (UTC)

You are rather right in your perception. However, when you write "Im not going to treat anyone with kid gloves simply because of their gender or particular ethnic sensitivities", allow me to have a different opinion on this than you. I fail sometimes, but I do try to take kid gloves to avoid pressing people painful points. Imho, it is good actively trying not to hurt people, and it is often more efficient. When I do not put the gloves on, it is either a mistake or really on purpose. Not regular habit. Fortunately, we are all different. Anthère

Sorry I didn't respond. I did see it, but I was trying to avoid thinking about the logo for a couple days (it hasn't yet invaded my dreams, and I aim to keep it that way). I can't make any changes to it during the voting, but some have suggested that changes should be made by consensus in the event that it wins. If you want the source files, they are at m:Image talk:Paullusmagnus-logo (small).png/archive3#Source files. Actually, I shouldn't have archived them, so I'll copy the links over to the main comments page. Paullusmagnus 16:43, 18 Sep 2003 (UTC)

no, read it again. Pizza Puzzle

m:International logo vote/Ratification

You voted against the ratification for en:. Was that intentional?—Eloquence 02:24, Sep 26, 2003 (UTC)

...no Chinese text for "Wikipedia"...

Sorry I don't understand what you mean by "ideographic forms" and "hanzi". But anyway...

I guess you don't quite understand our situation. When we want to translate a name, sometimes we don't just consider the sound (otherwise that would be known as a transliteration, not translation), we also want the translated name to have a meaning. (Even if we want to do a transliteration, there would be several characters with the same sound for us to choose from.)

If you can understand Chinese, please see our discussion about this topic here.

(Also 速全周宙書 makes no sense to me.) --Lorenzarius 17:59, 26 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Comments about logo development

Hi Steve,

I just wanted to thank you personally for all the positive feedback you've been giving me regarding my work on the logo. It has really helped to keep me motived to keep working despite my other obligations.

--Nohat 04:01, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Since you are an avowed anti-deletionist...

Could you take a look at the current version of Wikipedia:Dead letter office (proposal)? I am about ready to go on a last big push to get support for its adoption, or failing that its transfer to meta. I cannot see anything I personally can polish further about it (and hence it may need a second view). Since you have criticized the abrupt process we have currently, perhaps you could give useful feedback on what should still be improved about it, how I should approach its promotion and other related matters? That is ofcourse if you don't think it is counterproductive. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 16:26, 30 Sep 2003 (UTC)

You're welcome

You're very welcome.... Rickyrab 01:29, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I think this is what I will do. (knock on wood, let everything turn out good)

I think the opportunity for pre-adoption debate for the cleanup and buffer pages is pretty much over.

The next time I go to take an opportunity to catch some zees, before succumbing to the magnetic forces of the pillow, I will make a maximum effort to publicize the fact that I will on waking up (presumably 2 hours to 6 hours from that timestamp {weighted around 3 hours}), put both of those pages live, and personally make an effort lasting from that waking up to until I drop, to fill the buffer page from new pages and random pages (dealing with trivial matters on the spot, but not sending anything at all directly to VFD.

Debating anything I add, yes, but not taking any but the most trivial corrective actions myself. I will try to fill the page with relevant content by my own efforts, if no-one joins me, and as there likely will not be enough new pages to occupy me full time, I will just supplement it from the random pages, there have to be some pages that could be in a state somewhat similar to a new page...

If nobody joins to debate/comment on what I add there, it will then serve as my private todo list in the Wikipedia namespace for the timeperiod until someone puts the page itself on VFD (which I would hold my breath on, considering the waffling on deletion of the wikimoney page.. (sorry, but "GRR")). I'm sorry; but this is what I am about to do. Fair warning. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 12:40, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for your "welcome back" note. Just to save face before the wiki faithfull: I was away because I didn't have internet access at the job I worked at over the summer in the UK. ;-) --snoyes 02:55, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Sysop

Thank you for the nomination but I have declined. I would not be able to fulfil such responsibilities without being able to read Arabic and I don't have time at the moment to learn this. Angela 19:08, Oct 6, 2003 (UTC)

Stevertigo, it looks like you added div tags around tables on eukaryote and various other articles. These add a margin on some browsers, but they appear to destroy the formatting on others, not all of which are obsolete. - Josh

How come you're deleting stuff that hasn't been listed a week? Have you become a m:deletionist at last? Angela 06:39, Oct 7, 2003 (UTC)

No time to tie up loose ends, sorry, meant to be on my way to work. I did undelete three things though on the basis they were out-of-process deletions that had not been listed on VfD for a week and did not meet the requirements for instant deletion. They are still listed on VfD. Angela 07:09, Oct 7, 2003 (UTC)

I hope I didn't offend you by undeleting those pages. I had no time to explain this morning (real-life and all that) but I'm not sure that having a wide support for deletion before the 7 days is up is really a justification for deleting. I've had complaints before about deleting something just one day early. Personally, I think it should be allowed, but currently that's not what the policy allows. I was just trying to avoid you being accused of an abuse of power but the likes of Wiwaxia et al. Perhaps you should rewrite the Deletion policy page first. Then you can justify it when they all complain. There's also the issue that a lot of people are currently saying that an 80% agreement is not consensus, as shown by the recent requests on WP:VFU. Take care, Angela 13:05, Oct 7, 2003 (UTC)

Biko

Good idea adding Steve Biko to the Main page. Alas, there was nothing in the article indicating why he was in the news -- but that was easy to fix. Perhaps next time?... -- Viajero 08:48, 8 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Please don't call me a jerk ([3]). Name calling is no way to spread Wikilove. Drolsi Susej 06:00, 9 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Bolivian Gas War

Hi Steve, thanks for your friendly note about Bolivian Gas War. It was something of an experiment for me, writing up a current event for Wiki, which I hadn't done before. My primary motivation was to put some life into the slow-moving In the news section on the Main Page, and especially get something in there from the ROW. Anyway, thanks for your contributions. I moved that line about Bolivian flags in Antofagasta to War of the Pacific, where it seemed more at home. (while I was there I also expanded the latter article a bit). Regarding the term litoral, as I suppose you know, it just means coast in Spanish. The Argentines also use it to refer to the region along the Paraná in the province Corrientes. Hey, good of you to squeeze Biko back on the Main page, gotta keep some international balance there! See ya... -- Viajero 08:52, 10 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi, FearÉireann means man of Ireland. FearÉIREANN 19:57, 13 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi, I have flagged an error in an article you recently created, List of dead in Bolivian Gas War. Cheers, Cyan 23:22, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC) ---

Hi Stevertigo why did you redirect the santorum article to the Rick Santorum article when the first one is on vfd and than include that article on the RS page ? Smith03 22:31, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The reason given to initially block Mediator was that it was edited by a banned user; since I had the password, and changed it, I thought I could unban it and edit it. I explained why I thought I could do so. But Jimbo blocked Mediator, with no explanation other than the fact it was being edited by a banned user. And user:anthere was blocked as a consequence for the same reason. I did not understand if this is meant to insure blocked users cannot edit under other ip, or if it is a technical flaw; But it works.

I think it is high time for a vacation from english-speaking people :-)

Esteban ?

About signatures.

If you want to tweak the language in the preamble to Cleanup towards expressing a preference for signing comments, I will not press the issue. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 09:07, Oct 17, 2003 (UTC)

There are several points. The fact that not any starting wikipedia has users "trained" enough to understand what NPOV is. During months, I learned what it could be here, on seeing process here, and suffered to see what it was on fr; It is better now, because more people are going to and thro between wikis. It is very very important. Still, many confuse NPOV with "medium" opinion, and censor anything that does not fit the mainstream view. As I said to Steve, variety is limited on small wikis, because we are less numerous, and internet project necessarily attract rather male, white, jewish or christian, and usually with a computer related job. This is structural and can't be help, however, the bigger the size, the more chance at least a woman, a muslim, a racist, a lepen supporter, a religious integrist, a retired person, a plumber to appear.
Second point is that some languages are spoken, not in so many countries like english, but in a limited number, so there will always be a structural bias (for example european bias on the fr wikipedia, though french is also spoken in so many arab countries - incidently, if servers are one day working well, I hope to make some promotion in arab country, with hope it will both benefit the fr and the arab wikipedia). On the fr wiki, there is very little difference made between a political view and vandalism, a religious view and vandalism. To make it clear, when I tried to work on the NPOV policy a year ago, someone suggested that wikipedia should adopt the charter of UN. There were also suggestion to put at the front that any opinion going against scientific evidence should not be considered an opinion but an error. I regret you do not speak french, as a "problematic" user and I compiled a collection of opinions on the matter I find very interesting (and scary as well :-) http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_neutralit%C3%A9_de_point_de_vue

The guy case is an interesting one, as it shows the present procedure applied. The guy was biaised (though I am fairly certain it was just free provocation), he was treated rather harshly, mocked, reverted, insulted, humiliated. After a while, he got wild (is it that surprising after one is heavily handled and no one step in to help ?). Here was the procedure

much insults and heated comments
the guy was ip blocked.
his exclusion was decided on the ml (where he is not registered) by a half dozen of guys
no one talked to him or suggested a mediation. The conflict was not treated as a NPOV conflict, but a personality conflict - each time the same
Brion was asked to proceed to a wide range ip block
next step was to ask Brion to ban the name.

Dunno what would have happened then, the case never happened on any non english wikipedia that I am aware. Would have Brion ask Jimbo ? Or just proceeded to the block because the ml appears to be "official decision" ? What would have Jimbo answered ? If he had asked facts, who would have step to make "neutral" report (I have the answer for this one, no one) ? And if Jimbo had refused the banning, what would the french people reaction have been ? (can we safely assume that Jimbo should have had agreed on the ban for political reasons ?) Could embassadors help ? Given that one ambassador was not there, and the other one a partisan in the conflict, how can we assume he could have made a honest report ? How to resolve the fact that in a personality conflict, the one helping the problematic user is confused with him ?

Unfortunately for the experiment, I came back from my holidays...so I have no answer to my questions, as I asked Brion to remove the blocks on the spot. The guy is still more or less quietly editing from time to time, since we fixed the conflict. But I suspect I should one day not do anything, just to see what happens.

That offers new questions. Why was my opinion the one followed ? (I mean the guy was not blocked) Should it be by default that when a trusted user support not banning one, it is enough to do so ? If this is made by majority, we would have at least a handful of blocked users on fr by now. Perhaps should we not authorize blocking (or banning) people until at least one person have been officially called to help in the conflict, so we can safely assume at least a tentative was made to solve the conflict other than by exclusion. We have no policy on this. I suppose that is the position Brion adopted when unblocking the ips. but perhaps should there be something more official ? Such as a panel of people motivated to do so in case, and when a banning suggestion is done, no decision must be made till the panel has given its opinion, and *one* has agreed to try a conflict resolution.

I would like to hint at something that I realised these days. For en people, blocking and banning are two different things. Because blocking is done by sysops and Jimbo, while banning is done by Jimbo only, supreme authority on the matter. But technically (and ultimately) it is JUST the same. Exclusion. Temporary or final, but exclusion nonetheless.

On an international wikipedia, there is currently no difference between banning and blocking. Blocking an ip, blocking a name is effectively a ban. And since any sysop can block a name, that means there is no need of a community decision to ban someone.

And, righto, that means on international wikipedias, banning is just in the hands of the noisiest or more persistent ones. I am not sure on en, but on fr, the majority of people is pro-blocking rather than conflict resolution trying. Which means that unless that changes, or unless other wikipedians, less pro-blocking, participate in a larger debate on a topic, I can't try to work on any policy that would likely result in a policy I will not approve. Better to wait the propice time. Right now, I think that the more I can limit banning, and prove that the non-banned can participate decently in the encyclopedia, the best way it is to prove the user can be part of it and banning can be avoided. This, and try to make obvious the difference between a personality conflict, and a NPOV one. And that having different political, religious, sexual opinions, is also different. sTo avoid this

Banning scheme

Don't worry, I'm not implementing anything. I'm being a good little developer and asking for comments first. The answer to your question was in fact a few entries above your comment on my user talk page. The proposal is here, on wikien-l. So far three people have commented on it: Martin and Anthere on talk pages, and Jake Nelson on the list. I wouldn't mind some more opinions, especially regarding expiry time, which is a very tricky parameter to set. The ideal setting depends on how many active sysops there are, and how hard we want banning to be. -- Tim Starling 04:29, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

Message for you on User talk:Tim Starling. I'm trying to keep most of the discussion on this proposal in one place. -- Tim Starling 07:33, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

Kip and tendrils

Kip must read very slow if he's still reading Vance Packard. This is for your to-do list because I deleted it: Create a redirect from Tendrilage to Tendril. But not until Tendril exists. It's confusing otherwise for people who see the link to tendrilage and think it exists (well confusing for Tim as his page is the only page that links to it, but even so - you don't want confused developers). :) Angela 23:51, Oct 19, 2003 (UTC)

Hi Sv. Re your re-ordering of the names on the Mother Teresa page. In fact wikipedia policy has long been to apply a different naming convention to holders of monarchical or religious office, namely that their religious or monarchical name, never their personal name, comes first. That is because, unlike in most other spheres, their birth name is usually abandoned or changed to a religious name very early on in life and, in the case of MT, most popes and all monarchs, there birth name would be unrecognisable to 99% of readers. So popes are always called by papal name, never birth name. Ditto with monarchs, saints and other religious figures. In religious figures 95% plus change their name if entering a monastery or convent and simply drop and never use again their personal name, which is only known to their family. (I only discovered a grand-aunt's birth name after her death; I always knew her, and everyone did, only by means of her religious name. In the case of royalty, clerical figures and some other categories, birth names are simply not mentioned up front. As in a number of other areas, no-one bothered to update the MoS to take into account at this stage long standing and universally followed conventions in these areas. On that basis I am going to change back the order of names to follow the relevant conventions. FearÉIREANN 22:37, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)