Talk:Elon Musk
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Q1: Can I write a message to Elon Musk here? (No.)
A1: No. The "Talk:Elon Musk" page is not for writing messages to Musk. It is only for discussing changes to the Wikipedia article about him. Writing a message to Musk here is pointless and disruptive, and such messages will be removed as an improper use of the page. Q2: Can you update the article to call Musk a "business magnet"? (No.)
A2: No. Musk once suggested in an interview that his Wikipedia article be changed to describe him as a "business magnet" rather than a magnate. The tone of that interview was not very serious; he also claimed to be an alien.[1] Wikipedia doesn't have to do what Musk says, and this request has been made and declined dozens of times already. New requests may be removed without a response so that other discussions are not disrupted. Q3: Should Musk be identified as South African in the opening sentence?
A3: Musk is a US citizen (since 2002) born and raised in South Africa, and also acquired Canadian citizenship via his mother. Including these nationalities in the opening sentence in a balanced way would be complex, and the consensus is that they should instead be explained later in the lead. Q4: Can you change "Tesla CEO" to "Tesla Technoking"?
A4: No, because he is still CEO according to company records and that is a common corporate title that readers will understand, unlike "Technoking". The goal of the article is to inform people, which would be hindered by raising a confusing technicality. Q5: Should the mention of Errol Musk having an interest in an emerald mine be removed in view of Elon's denials?
A5: While Elon today vehemently disputes any history with an emerald mine, he formerly accepted and even confirmed it. Specifically, a 2014 report originally printed in the San Jose Mercury News (and cited in the article) stated that Errol Musk had "a stake in" a mine. Elon affirmed his father's mine involvement in an interview with Jim Clash, a career interviewer of public figures, that was published by Forbes and withdrawn without explanation a few months later. Elon biographer Ashlee Vance likewise confirmed Errol's mining interest, with Elon's objections but not denials, in a 2020 interview report with Elon. Errol has stated that he received hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of emeralds from his dealings. Q6: Should "Bachelor of Arts in Physics" be "Bachelor of Science" instead?
A6: No. Although it may seem counterintuitive, "Bachelor of Arts in Physics" is the degree that the University of Pennsylvania (among other schools) awards. Q7: Should the article acknowledge doubts about Musk's academic record?
A7: Wikipedia policy on biographies of living persons requires that negative information about a person must be attributed to reliable published sources, and excludes both self-published sources (e.g. Twitter threads) and court trial records. The article states that sources disagree about when Musk obtained bachelor degrees, and that he did not attend Stanford for any significant amount of time. Any doubts beyond this require appropriate sources. Q8: Why doesn't this article describe Musk as an engineer?
A8: Musk is chief engineer of SpaceX, a title that applies within the company and that the press regularly mentions. He is not a professional engineer, a distinction within engineering that carries certain legal privileges in the United States, nor has he completed an engineering training program, nor has he ever been hired as an engineer. The article therefore does not include any of these claims. It does note that, from time to time, Musk has made initial product proposals at his companies that his trained engineers then research and develop. He does hold IEEE Honorary Membership. Q9: Why doesn't the article identify Musk as co-founder of PayPal?
A9: Because that could mislead readers that Musk was involved in the creation of the PayPal service and brand, when he was not. Instead, as the article states, he co-founded a company (X.com Corporation) that acquired the company that had developed PayPal (Confinity Inc.) and then renamed itself as PayPal, Inc. Q10: Why does this page include criticism of Musk's actions and stances?
A10: Musk is criticized/praised a lot in many reliable sources, and as such we need to talk about these criticisms and praise. To quote from Wikipedia's policy on a neutral point of view, articles must represent "fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Q11: Why is this a "good article" when some people consider Musk a bad person?
A11: "Good article" on Wikipedia refers to the way the article is written, not what kind of person Musk is. Good articles have been found to satisfy Wikipedia editorial standards for accuracy, verifiability and balanced presentation. Q12: Why doesn't this page call Musk African American?
A12: African Americans are an ethnic group of Americans with total or partial ancestry from any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Reliable sources do not use this term to describe Musk. References
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How to appropropratly document the perception of Musk as an oligarch in this article ?
[edit]I Think I already brought up the topic once before, but I feel due to current events, the Topic needs an update anyway. Maybe my Question could become part of the FAQ, since I guess I might not be the Only one considering Musk as an Oligarch. And their are a lot of International News Article where Musk is considered an Oligarch so why not document this perception in this article? Aberlin2 (talk) 21:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- That seems like it would make an appropriate addition to the section Elon Musk#Public perception. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
- I removed this from the lead because it wasn't in the body and is pretty serious to level in a BLP. It is not a significant accusation besides a few opinion pieces, so it doesn't even belong in this article. What could be added is mentions of his outsize influence in politics, however that's already mentioned in the final paragraph of the lead. Bill Williams 00:51, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- He seems to meet the Oxford Language Dictionary definition based on recent events ("very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence"), but agreed this is not referenced/corroborated enough with satisfactory sources to be beyond a mention in the Elon Musk#Public perception section Nicnotesay hello!contribs 01:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Nicnote I think it should mean something for his representation in the article that he is an Oligarch based on the definition.
- otherwise the article is not meeting the criteria of neutrality because it would hide this aspect Aberlin2 (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Bill Williams that referring Musk as Oligarch in the Lead, would likely be a violation of WP:BLP, due to the negative connotations associted with Oligarchs. Also, most current WP:RS sources do not refer to Musk as an Oligarch, so it would likely violate WP:RS and WP:DUE too. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think I should only be mentioned in the article body with relevant context using NPOV language after achieving WP:Consensus, due to its contentious nature in a BLP article. RogerYg (talk) 09:33, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with Bill Williams that referring Musk as Oligarch in the Lead, would likely be a violation of WP:BLP, due to the negative connotations associted with Oligarchs. Also, most current WP:RS sources do not refer to Musk as an Oligarch, so it would likely violate WP:RS and WP:DUE too. Thanks RogerYg (talk) 09:28, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
A more recent photograph is needed
[edit]Musk is one of the most prominent public figures on Earth, and his physical appearance has changed significantly since 2018. A more recent cover image is needed. Here is an adequate option from 2023: The Prime Minister, Shri Narendra Modi meeting Mr. Elon Musk in New York, USA on June 20, 2023 (2) (cropped).jpg
Firecat93 (talk) 05:13, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Firecat93 Is this the best option? It would be an ok choice, but it’s fairly low resolution. — HTGS (talk) 23:19, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- This discussion already occurred at Talk:Elon Musk/Archive 20#RfC: Infobox image. The infobox image will not be changed unless another RfC is held; any attempts to do so now would fall under WP:SNOWBALL. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 03:09, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
Born in South Africa
[edit]On the page about Karl Marx, it says "Karl Marx (German: [kaʁl ˈmaʁks]; 5 May 1818 – 14 March 1883) was a German-born". In the first paragraph of this article, I think it should say "Elon Reeve Musk FRS (/ˈiːlɒn/; born June 28, 1971) is a South African-born businessman known for his." Just because he's a citizen of USA and UK doesn't mean you need to remove the fact he's South Africa guy. Why isn't his birth mentioned in the first paragraph. It could also say "South African-born American" or simply "South African-born." DisneyGuy744 (talk) 23:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
- See the FAQ at the top. QRep2020 (talk) 06:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- As previosly discussed, per MOS:BLPLEAD , current citizenship "American" should get priority.
- Previous consensus is not to include South-African born in the first sentence, but mention it later in the lead. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) RogerYg (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- ok DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Somehow, the article short desciption still says South African born businessman, which should be changed to something more appropriate per previous discussions. RogerYg (talk) 09:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- THat is not the lead. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Somehow, the article short desciption still says South African born businessman, which should be changed to something more appropriate per previous discussions. RogerYg (talk) 09:35, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- ok DisneyGuy744 (talk) 21:59, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
DOGE is a notable aspect - needs to be briefly mentioned in First paragraph
[edit]As per WP:LEAD and WP:Firstparagraph, DOGE has emerged as a widely reported notable aspect, and hence deserves mention in the first paragraph of the lead. RogerYg (talk) 01:25, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- @RogerYg yes, like the perception of Musk as oligarch which is now at the end of the article Aberlin2 (talk) 16:27, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
- When he takes office, yes we can, until then we are not a newspaper. Slatersteven (talk) 16:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Lack of Citation
[edit]There isn’t a single citation starting with the paragraphs directly below his signature extending to the early life section. There are several statements that could use citation. WhowinsIwins (talk) 09:11, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Citations are generally avoided in the lead (see WP:LEADCITE), as the lead should summarise the rest of the article. Anything that's in the lead should be cited later on in the article. — Czello (music) 09:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Ideally, the lede is meant to summarise the key points of the content of the article, and the infobox also adheres to the mandate. BarntToust 19:27, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
NPOV Bedrohung der Demokratie und Oligarchie sollte eine größere Gewichtung bekommen
[edit]in der aktuellen Version des Artikels bekommt die Beobachtung, dass Elon Musk in seiner Kommunikation memes verwendet eine größere Aufmerksamkeit und priorisierung in der Gliederung des Artikels als die Beobachtung beispielsweise eines Wirtschaftsnobelpreisträgers, dass man ihn als Oligarch und betrogen für die Demokratie sehen kann. ich denke das ist eine unausgewogene Sache und sollte entsprechend mit dem entsprechenden Baustein zu Beginn des Artikels dokumentiert werden, was denkt ihr? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:24, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- uah sorry, I was accidentally in the wrong language version. this comment was meant for the German Wikipedia Aberlin2 (talk) 16:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
New article
[edit]The Last Hungry Cat (talk) 00:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- @The Last Hungry Cat sorry I don't understand: what does this comment mean? Aberlin2 (talk) 16:41, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Founder of Tesla
[edit]Elon Musk was one of the founders of Tesla, and that should be mentioned in the article, not that he was just an "early investor". Elon Musk has repeatedly claimed to have come up with the name "Tesla Motors", and the concept. He suggested it to Eberhard as they were both mildly involved(test driving and such) in another EV project called T-Zero. They did not own the rights to the name "Tesla Motors", since a guy called Brad Siewert had already registered it for his own company. While Elon officially didn't join the company before 6 months after Eberhard and Tarpenning had incorporated it, at the time the company was just a shell corp with no employees, no offices, no funding, no IP, no designs, no prototype, just this general idea of commercializing the T-Zero. First thing Elon Musk did after officially joining Tesla was to buy the rights to the name from Brad Siewert. Elon Musk was introduced to the T-Zero car by JB Straubel, who later became Tesla's first Chief Technology Officer. After experiencing the T-Zero, Musk was inspired and wanted to commercialize it, and the AC Propulsion guys(who made the T-Zero) connected him with Eberhard and Tarpenning, as they had the same idea. In Eberhard's lawsuit against Tesla, he wanted to be recognized as one of only two founders of the company(alongside Marc Tarpenning), a claim that was rejected by the judge. The judge struck down Eberhard's claim, and this decision was based on the broader context of Tesla's founding and the contributions of others, including Musk, JB Straubel, and Ian Wright, who were also considered integral to the company's early development. Obviously Eberhard has his own version of events, that are not compatible with Elon Musk's version, and the truth might be somewhere in the middle, but at the end of the day, this was dealt with in court, the court rejected Eberhard's claims, and concluded that Elon Musk was integral to the founding of Tesla... so, it seems only right that Wikipedia accept that there were(legally recognized) 5 founders of Tesla, including Elon Musk. I have not made any changes to the article, but just wanted to put this forward here, so others can evaluate whether to do so. FindTheBalance (talk) 21:49, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- Musk was not a founder of Tesla. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
- That's Eberhards narrative. It's easy to find plenty of articles that say the opposite, that Elon Musk was the founder of Tesla.
- Here is Elon's perspective:
- https://www.teslarati.com/elon-musk-debunks-tesla-history-fake-news/
- Elon Musk came up with the name:
- https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/why-elon-musk-named-his-electric-car-tesla/
- Elon Musk was one of the founders("Musk is also among the founders of Tesla,"):
- https://www.reuters.com/article/tesla-suit-idUKN2131161020090921/
- And again, the court ruled with Elon Musk, dismissed Eberhards claim that he and Tarpenning were the only founders. That should be the final word in this.
- https://www.cnet.com/culture/teslas-musk-gloats-over-eberhard-ruling/
- https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-cofounder-eberhard-drops-his-lawsuit-against-tesla-musk-2009-8 FindTheBalance (talk) 01:05, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Thanks for sharing these good sources on Court ruling. Article needs to be updated to reflect this information. RogerYg (talk) 09:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- The article body has relevant details, but its not reflected in the Lead yet.
- A 2009 lawsuit settlement with Eberhard designated Musk as a Tesla co-founder, along with Tarpenning and two others.
- https://www.cnet.com/news/tesla-motors-founders-now-there-are-five/
- https://www.fastcompany.com/1367866/tesla-lawsuit-drama-ends-five-company-founders-emerge RogerYg (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Added in lead as a separate sentence. "He is considered a co-founder of Tesla motors" with references. Other editors may consider whether to include it along with early investor mention. Thanks. RogerYg (talk) 10:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed. Thanks for sharing these good sources on Court ruling. Article needs to be updated to reflect this information. RogerYg (talk) 09:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
- Agree with User talk:Muboshgu. Existing article reflects norms followed on other, closely related Wikipedia articles.
- Please do not make sweeping changes to a L5 BLP article without allowing for numerous participants to weigh in. 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC) QRep2020 (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
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