Talk:Vulcan salute

Ease of use

"raising the ring finger alone without assistance from the other hand is impossible for most people." I realize it is difficult for some people. But to say "most people" is a little rash. Maybe theres factual information on this somewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.176.230.87 (talk) 23:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a weasel word. -andy 212.114.254.107 (talk) 14:23, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the article wording is nonsense. It's trivial for large numbers of people to do the salute without significant practice. The stuff about shared tendons in particular is nonsense - yes the ring and little finger share a tendon and so it is harder to manipulate them independently but in the Vulcan salute these fingers remain together so the shared tendon is irrelevant! I've had a go at rewording this bit, no doubt an enthusiastic article watcher who is Vulcan-salute-challenged will revert it instantly... Mu2 (talk) 00:04, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Why do people claim that this is hard to do? I've been able to do it since I was old enough to know what it is, how difficult is it to seperate your fingers? MattUK (talk) 21:11, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

For me its actually hard to keep the pink and ring finger together. It is not an intuitive movement to do for most people. But it is possible, with some effort. And with some more effort, it would become as natural as the peace symbol is for most of us. - 88.159.237.128 (talk) 15:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I actually find it much easier to do the Vulcan Salute than the peace symbol. - Spencer8ab (talk) 23:52, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

It's easy if you play the piano. Lateral independent movement of the fingers is essential for playing chords. -- megA (talk) 17:01, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm certain that it is very difficult for the vast majority of people to do the Vulcan salute, and that this has to do with anatomy (something I'm thoroughly educated on). Those claiming that doing the Vulcan solute is easy are like contortionists or ambidextrous people suggesting that what they can do with their body or hands, respectively, should be easy for others to do. If there are WP:Reliable sources addressing the difficulty of doing the Vulcan solute, it should be covered in the article. Currently, it's not. Earlier this hour, I saw mention of the Vulcan salute (with regard to phones) on the news (HLN) and tried to do the Vulcan salute; I couldn't do it. Then I headed straight to this Wikipedia article to see if there is anything in it about the difficulty of using this salute. Flyer22 (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't have any special training (like piano), but I've always been able to do it easily on one hand, whereas on the other it's always been very difficult. I assumed it was genetic. Based on that assumption, I found: [1]. Not a reliable source, but provides some insight. Perhaps other (better) sources can be found. --Fru1tbat (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for giving your perspective, which is interesting; I appreciate you weighing in on this. Flyer22 (talk) 18:29, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Origin

I heard Leonard Nimoy speak at a corporate event in 2000 and he described how he based the salute on the Cohen blessing that he witnessed in synagogue as a child. --Cje 21:19, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

He also explains it in his autobiography, I Am Spock page 68, where he gives an account of his visit to the synagogue Rooster613 (talk) 16:31, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Vulcan Language Pronunciation

The Memory-Alpha article states the following: "In Vulcan, "Live long and prosper" is pronounced "Dup dor a'az Mubster". (Star Trek: The Motion Picture)" This is contradictory to the current Wikipedia article text: "(Dif-tor heh smusma in Vulcan language as spoken in Star Trek: The Motion Picture)." I'm inclined to agree with the M-A article's transliteration. Changing it now, please comment here if you change it back (and perhaps contribute to the M-A article as well) :) john factorial 19:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

According to many other places, it is : Tich tor ang tesmur —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drlf (talk • contribs) 20:33, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

ST:TMP Vulcan isn't exactly canon, since the actors spoke their lines in English and were later overdubbed with what could match their lip movements. -- megA (talk) 16:55, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Thumbs

The picture might be the inspiration for the Vulcan salute, but it should be pointed out that in the Vulcan salute, the thumb is extended.

That's correct. Can someone please change the picture? 86.154.59.213 17:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC).

Sorry, forgot to login. Above post actually posted by microchip08 17:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC).

I uploaded a photo demonstrating the salute. --Robert Daeley (talk) 01:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This criticism is correct for the Jewish version also -- the thumbs should be extended with tips touching. Beware of imitating old Jewish diagrams for kabbalistic subjects. Some artists purposely changed a detail in order to avoid giving away secrets to the uninitiated. Ditto for carvings on gravestones, etc. So yes, please re-do the picture!Rooster613 (talk) 16:21, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Deletion

This article does not need to be on an encyclopedia at all. Instead, it should be deleted, and a reference or trivia point to the "Vulcan Salute" should be made under a Hand Gestures article. --GnarlyLikeWhoa (talk) 18:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Stop being a deletionist. It's annoyiing. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia, and there is plenty of room, especially for something as recognisable and significant in some parts of our culture as this. Michael1115 (talk) 01:37, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Other Uses

What about when Marty uses it in Back to the Future? He does this when he dresses up as "Darth Vader" from "Planet Valkan." He threatens to melt George's brains with rock music.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.8.11.200 (talk) 13:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Nerdfighter Salute

Umm what? This is really noteworthy? May I suggest this section and the picture be candidate for deletion. 75.150.224.85 (talk) 14:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew translation

The article states "Shaddai" means "Almighty". That isn't the real hebrew interpretation. Shaddai is a hebrew Acronym "shin"-"daleth"-"yod" meaning "Shomer Daltoth Israel" translated as "Guard the doors of Israel" or "The guardian of the doors of Israel". It it's originally a name given to him as reminder of Passover (where he kept the houses - doors - of Israel from the plagues), and is used on the Mezuza (Jewish doorpost ornament and religious protection symbol).

So where did the interpretation as 'Almighty' came from? El Shaddai#Shaddai in the Midrash — Preceding unsigned comment added by MensIuguolo (talk • contribs) 17:37, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Your first ¶ is one of many theories. See the article El Shaddai. --Thnidu (talk) 10:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Not from victory sign

I'm deleting this clause from § Description. It misrepresents both the origin of the salute and its form (confusing it with the original!).

which was a two-handed version of Winston Churchill's victory sign.<ref name="diehl19680825">Diehl, Digby (1968-08-25). "Girls All Want To Touch The Ears". The New York Times. p. 173. Retrieved 27 February 2015. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |subscription= ignored (|url-access= suggested) (help)</ref>

--Thnidu (talk) 17:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

My fault for not being clear. Nimoy was talking about a second greeting he also created, which (I believe) was never used on the show. I've restored and clarified the text. Ylee (talk) 19:33, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation and clarification. Khaosworks has since revised the explanation; see diff. --Thnidu (talk) 21:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Celia Lovsky - Peter Lorre - "The Raven" (1963)

This piece of trivia appears in the biography section of Celia Lovsky at IMDB. "Her Peter Lorre / Star Trek (1966) connection: She was instrumental in making Fritz Lang aware of Lorre's talent, leading eventually to his debut film M (1931). She was also the first person to execute the Vulcan greeting, in Star Trek: Amok Time (1967). In addition, in Roger Corman's The Raven (1963), Lorre uses the Vulcan hand sign in his wizard fight with Boris Karloff. Perhaps she learned it from Lorre and demonstrated it to Leonard Nimoy." (Bold emphasis added.)

You can see the Vulcan Salute at the 28 second mark in this 3 minute youtube video clip of The Raven. Lorre was also Jewish and might have thought to use the "shin" hand signal from his own upbringing. Lorre died in 1964, three years before the Amok Time episode of Star Trek. It would have been difficult for him to comment on the Wizard - Vulcan Salute posthumously. Did he ever comment (maybe in an interview?) on why he made the hand signal in The Raven?

The IMDB trivia note claims that Celia Lovsky (as T'Pau) was the FIRST person to use the Vulcan Salute on Star Trek. Is that true? (I'm no expert.) Spock never used it prior to that episode?

If you think Peter Lorre's use of the "Vulcan Salute" in 1963 in The Raven should be mentioned in the Main Article, please add it there. AdderUser (talk) 06:38, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

But first you need to find a reliable source stating that. Unfortunately, IMDb comments don't count. ANd your own impressions are original research. SixFourThree (talk) 15:13, 24 August 2018 (UTC)SixFourThree

Thank you for your comment. I'm not very proficient with wikipedia contribution details. I notice that my ENTIRE comment about Peter Lorre using the proto-Vulcan Salute has been deleted. If ALL of the speculation is dropped, there is still a lot of factual evidence. I think that it would be fair and correct to show the FACTUAL screen shot from The Raven (1963) and provide the link to the film clip as an example of a Vulcan Salute hand gesture BEFORE Star Trek even existed. Nimoy and Lorre were both Jewish (fact). (Speculation: Did Lorre also know about the shin hand symbol?; do not include. And most of the other stuff is speculation, but interesting speculation.) If you can help to add a wikipedia-worthy reference to Peter Lorre's hand gesture in The Raven, I think it would be relevant. THANKS! — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdderUser (talk • contribs) 03:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

The whole comment was removed because the whole comment was your own original research. I know it seems complicated, but the rules are actually pretty simple. Our own observations aren't enough to warrant inclusion here. You have a screen grab from a movie, but does that image actually reflect the actor's deliberate choice of a hand gesture? Or is it happenstance, freezing an action midway through in a manner that suggests a connection where none exists? We don't know. This is why a reliable source stating that Lorre intended to use the Shefa Tal symbol. Otherwise it's all "interesting speculation" to be sure, but interesting speculation doesn't belong in these articles. SixFourThree (talk) 15:08, 4 September 2018 (UTC)SixFourThree

Totally agree with SixFourThree - FlightTime (open channel) 15:20, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments and explanations. If it helps, the film clip cited above shows that it is a deliberate hand gesture that is held for at least 9-10 seconds (0:25 to 0:35 in the clip). I hope someone can come up with a legitimate way to get Peter Lorre's proto-Vulcan Salute, with photo, into the main article. Is a built-in disclaimer allowed: "Although Lorre used a similar Shefa Tal proto-Vulcan Salute in The Raven, there is no record of it's origin, purpose, or meaning in that context." AdderUser (talk) 17:53, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't even think you could say "proto-Vulcan". It appears it's just another actor using a similar gesture with the same origin, but coincidental uses of the same gesture don't belong here. Nimoy says he got it from synagogue, not Peter Lorre. --Fru1tbat (talk) 18:13, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Besides, our own observations are not legitimate sources. That's called "original research" and its not allowed. You need to find a reliable source, a news article or something like that, where the similarity is discussed and the theory that Nimoy based it on Lorre is put forward. I know it seems strange, but those are the rules. You don't need evidence for your assertions, you need a source. SixFourThree (talk) 19:08, 13 September 2018 (UTC)SixFourThree

What about the possibility of adding a NEW section called "Other visible examples of the Shin / Shefa Tal / El Shaddai hand symbol" or "Other Observations of Similar Hand Signals" etc.? That would be "observations" (only) without necessarily making a claim about underlying theories of origination. Come to think of it, if you remove Nimoy's own comments about his religious background and experience influencing his choice of the shin, there would be no "Origins" section and the article would still stand as an article about the Vulcan Salute. So, I argue, "Similar Hand Signals" could just be a valid new section that others could add to if they find legitimate examples in their movie or art or other viewing (maybe a piece of ancient Aztec pottery has a Vulcan Salute on it?). As mentioned above, a fleeting, accidental, non-deliberate movie display would not be acceptable example. (E.g., imagine freeze-framing every frame of King Kong (1933) until you find one shot of KK's fingers spread like a shin: not a valid example.) The Background and Gallery sections have a lot of post-Star Trek mentions; I'm suggesting adding a distinct pre-Star Trek section. Your opinions on creating a new "Other" section (mostly for the purpose of getting the Peter Lorre info and picture in there as the first example)? Thank you. U+1F596 🖖 RAISED HAND WITH PART BETWEEN MIDDLE AND RING FINGERS (What is the correct way to enter the Vulcan Salute emoji without the extra unidode number? I entered curly curly unichar pipe 1F596 close curly close curly and I can't figure out how to get the hand only without the U+1F596 part.) AdderUser (talk) 21:14, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

First of all, no "observations" of the kind you're recommending would be appropriate without reliable sources relating them to the subject. And then, if others have emulated the Shin gesture / priestly blessing, it belongs in those articles, both of which are linked in this one. On your other points: the origins section is about the origin of the subject of this article. The new information you're proposing is about possible uses of a common ancestor, which is not the subject of this article. As I said, they already have their own articles. Your example of the gesture on some ancient pottery would be completely inappropriate to include here. It's unrelated trivia. I'm curious - why do you feel including these things is important? --Fru1tbat (talk) 14:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, again, for your reply. I looked at the other articles and I don't see a place for The Raven (Lorre) photo. So I guess it's going to remain trivia on the Talk page and not the Main Article. Do you know how to enter plain text to code for the emoji WITHOUT getting the extra "U+1F596" part? Thanks! U+1F596 🖖 RAISED HAND WITH PART BETWEEN MIDDLE AND RING FINGERS AdderUser (talk) 18:30, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't, unfortunately. The template you're using is for documenting unicode characters, not just reproducing them, and I'm unaware of a template that just does the latter. I was able to just copy and paste from your previous post here, though: 🖖 --Fru1tbat (talk) 16:24, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Your Vulcan is so bad...even the ROMULANS are cringing!!!

Your Vulcan is so bad...even the ROMULANS are cringing!!! 69.146.21.16 (talk) 07:32, 19 February 2024 (UTC)