Talk:Limburgish

Edits by ‎93.221.40.167

I would like to quote this IP

Article Essen: (closely related to Dutch). removed. This isn't even wrong.

Talk:Lower Rhine region:

Once in the article:

"Bergish .. is the easternmost dialect of Limburgish"

• Jan Goossens, Die Gliederung des Südniederfränkischen, in: Rheinische Vierteljahrsblätter. Jahrgang 30  1965, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn, 1965, p. 79-94, esp. p. 79:

• ‚Südniederfränkisch‘ nennt man [..] die Mundarten, die in einem Raum gesprochen werden, der sich beiderseits der Grenze zwischen dem Verbreitungsgebiet der deutschen und der niederländischen Kultursprache über drei Staaten, Deutschland, die Niederlande und Belgien, in einem Dreieck Tienen-Remscheid-Eupen erstreckt. Als Seiten des Dreiecks kann man die ik/ich-Linie (Tienen-Remscheid), die maken/machen-Linie (Remscheid-Eupen) und die romanische Sprachgrenze (Eupen-Tienen) betrachten. [...] Der niederländisch-flämische Teil dieses Gebietes ist unter dem Namen ‚Limburgisch‘ bekannt [...].

• That is: South Low Franconian lies between Ürdingen and Benrath line (has ich and maken). Limburgish is the Netherlandic-Flemish part of it.

• Bergish is variously defined, see
  Peter Wiesinger, Strukturgeographische und strukturhistorische Untersuchungen zur Stellung der bergischen Mundarten zwischen Ripuarisch, Niederfränkisch und Westfälisch, in: Peter Wiesinger, edited by Franz Patocka, Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte, Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim / Zürich / New York, 2017, p. 341–437

• p. 349f.: "1967 Erich MENGEL [...] 1. Südbergische Mundarten (südlich der Benrather Linie)"

• I.e. Mengel's Bergish includes some Ripuarian, which is not South Low Franconian.

• p. 422 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie north of the Ürdingen line (have ik).

• p. 437 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie in the area of "Randbergisch" which is part of "Bergisch".

• Hence some of Wiesinger's Bergish lies north of the Ürdingen line and isn't South Low Franconian (south of the Ürdingen line).

article Low Franconian

Georg Wenker used the term Niederfränkisch (Low Franconian) more in the sense of Ripuarisch. Cp.:

• Georg Wenker, Das rheinische Platt. – Den Lehrern des Rheinlandes gewidmet, 2nd ed., im Selbstverlage des Verfassers, Düsseldorf, 1877

• • p. 13: "Davon abgesehen aber ist Köln der eigentliche Mittelpunkt einer großen, die ganze Mitte der Rheinprovinz einnehmenden Mundart. Diese hat man die niederfränkische genannt, und unter dem Namen wollen wir sie uns denn auch merken. Nach Norden ist die Benrather Linie ihre Grenze, [...]"

• • p. 14: "Wir haben nun noch zu sehen, wie das Niederfränkische, also die Mundart um Köln herum, sich nach Süden hin begrenzt. [...] Welches sind nun die beiden Mundarten, die sich hier vermengen? Die nördliche ist die niederfränfische um Köln, wie wir schon wissen, die südliche aber ist der Moseldialect auf dem linken Rheinufer zu beiden Seiten der Mosel und der Westerwälder Dialect auf der rechten Rheinseite im Westerwald. Diese beiden, der Moseldialect und der Westerwälder Dialect, sind fast ganz gleich und man nennt sie auch zusammen das Mittelfränkische (und zwar die nördlichste Mundart des Mittelfränkischen, denn [...]).

• Jürgen Lang, Sprache im Raum: Zu den theoretischen Grundlagen der Mundartforschung. Unter Berücksichtigung des Rätoromanischen und Leonesischen, series: Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie. Band 185, Max Niemeyer Verlag, Tübingen, p. 195

</ref> Most dialects and languages included within this category are spoken in the Netherlands, northern Belgium (Flanders), in the Nord department of France, in western Germany (Lower Rhine), as well as in Suriname, South Africa and Namibia.

and

North and South Low Franconian, classified like this:. Compare also:

• LVR-Institut für Landeskunde und Regionalgeschichte (ed.). "Dialekte im Rheinland". Retrieved 21 July 2023.

Article Limburgish:

Gossens (1965) distinguished the following sub-dialects:

• ostlimburgisch-ribuarisches Übergangsgebiet (East Limburgish - Ripuarian transitional area; Ürdingen, Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mönchen-Gladbach, Eupen)

• Ostlimburgisch (East Limburgish; Panningen, Krefeld, Dülken, Sittard)

• Zentrallimburgisch (Central Limburgish; Maastricht, Vroenhoven)

• westlimburgisch-zentrallimburgisches Übergangsgebiet (West Limburgish - Central Limburgish transitional area; around and southern of Genk)

• • Tongerländisch (Tongeren)

• • Bilzerländisch (Genk, Bilzen)

• Westlimburgisch (West Limburgish; Veldeke, Hasselt, St.-Truiden, Loon)

• südbrabantisch-westlimburgisches Übergangsbiet (South Brabantian - West Limburgish transitional area)

• • Ostgeteländisch (Beringen)

• • Westgeteländisch (Tienen)

From talk:Dutch dialects

Text parts added to/removed from the lead

Until yesterday, this was still part of the definition in the lead: [...] spoken in Dutch Limburg, Belgian Limburg, [and neighbouring regions of Germany (North Rhine-Westphalia)] (the latter part seems rather the somewhat broader definition of South Low Franconian; maybe this essential distinction should be re-added as well to the lead in a different form, to distinguish better and immediately between Limburgish and SLF). The current version only defines the territory where Limburgish is spoken, very vaguely and not in any detail, as ... Belgium and the Netherlands.. . So this new version seems very incomplete, unlike the previous version. Therefore I think at least this is no improvement at all.

Another striking issue with the new lead is the emphasis which is now immediately laid on the relation of Limburgish to Standard Dutch (with Bakker (1997) as the only source used). My suggestion is to move this part to the section "Classification and history" (or maybe "Characteristics", not existing in the current article version),

What do others (preferably I'd like to see especially non-involved editors here) think about these points? De Wikischim (talk) 09:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

"Characterized by their distance to, and limited participation in the formation of, Standard Dutch" is a very inapt and cherry-picked classifier for what Limburgish is (and to "refers to"). For the most part since late the 19th century, "Limburgish" is the Dutch/Belgian term for the southeasternmost group of Low Franconian varieties spoken on the territory of the Low Countries (in other words: South Low Franconian minus its dialects in Germany and eastern Luik). With the emergence of the Limburgs language movement, it has come to designate the collective of all basilects in Limburg that has attained regional language status in NL. Since this is English WP, we don't really need a Dutch POV-based fork about a transnational dialect area, so this article can safely focus on the sociolinguistic/politcal aspect of Limburgish, which is best mirrored in the lede by identifying it as a regional language spoken in spoken in Dutch Limburg and Belgian Limburg (and obviously not in Germany) AND in the next sentence mention its second meaning.

We should take care not to equate Limburgs with "Limburgish". In B/NL scholarship, Limburgs has a strong connotational baggage as a dialect group, but in common international parlance, "Limburgish" doesn't (or at least does to a much lesser extent). Go to Ngram Viewer[1] and you'll find that "Limburgish" is almost entirely confined to 21th century discourse. A thorough unbiased survey of these source will tell if the topic of this article should be about "a group of Dutch dialects spoken in the southern Netherlands and Belgium" (Noun Phrase Structure in the Languages of Europe, 2008) or an "official regional language in the Netherlands" (Multilingualism in European Language Education, 2019). –Austronesier (talk) 09:21, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I think especially this should be an essential part of the definition: With the emergence of the Limburgs language movement, it has come to designate the collective of all basilects in Limburg that has attained regional language status in NL, now missing in the lead, at least in this form.

About the (supposed) "[relative] distance of Limburgish to Standard Dutch", I already pointed out (see above) that this info may be better at its place elsewhere within this article (the "Classification" section, for example).

Apart from that, I'm a little in doubt as well about the use of the article by Frens Bakker (1997) as a primary source for this. Bakker's article is very well usable as such for this subject, but focuses mainly on other relevant aspects of the Limburgish language (those aspects seem by and large absent from the article right now). De Wikischim (talk) 09:54, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: While Bakker (1997) could be criticized for being having somewhat of a ″popular linguistic″ vibe to it, I really don't see how repeating his remark that Limburgish dialects are characterized by their distance to, and limited participation in the formation of, Standard Dutch can be qualified as either ″cherry picked″ or ″inapt″, as it's one of the defining characteristics mentioned by Bakker.

And I would agree with this, as it seems that Standard Dutch is essential with regards to defining Limburgish, which would prove very difficult if not impossible to classify ″Limburgish″ as something other than South Low Franconian, without factoring in Standard Dutch; for example as a Dachsprache or as a major factor in dialectal decline. Defining ″Limburgish″ by isoglosses alone is not possible, as there is no isogloss separating it from South Low Franconian in Germany, and defining it by political status is not possible either, as there is no recognition in Belgium and the Dutch recognition is not specific to South Low Franconian. Defining ″Limburgish″ as ″South Low Franconian with Dutch as its Dachsprache″ seems very workable to me. It's not 100% watertight, but I don't see a better or more practical one.

As for using the term ″Limburgish language movement″, this is problematic as ″Limburgse taalbeweging″ gives a total of three results in Dutch, while ″Limburgish language movement″ has a grand total of zero] results in English. In addition to it not being term used, literature on this subject that the impetus for the regional language recognition wasn't at all a secessionist language movement, but rather a mainly conservatory effort mixed with a nation-wide resurgence of regionalism.

In order to work, this article needs to clear up what it's really about. For me personally, all the grammar/phonology/vocabulary and much of the linguistic history should (once properly sourced) be moved to South Low Franconian, where it belongs; whereas this article should primarily focus on sociolinguistics and political status. Vlaemink (talk) 11:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Nobody criticizes Bakker. De Wikischim and I just don't think that this is a primary characteristic of "Limburgish". For virtually every not entirely counterfactual statement you will find a reliable source, whether you do a Google search to prove a point, or you provide one single source in order to apply so much weight to a statement based on it so that we simply must have it as a descriptor in the opening sentence of lede. "Distance" might be a secondary characteristic (and one that is often emphasized and exaggerated by language advocates) and can mentioned in the lede but not in the defining sentence, while "limited participation in the formation of Standard Dutch" is true (as for all varieties in the eastern part of the Low Countries) but not ledeworthy.

"Limburgish language movement" is a phrase something I have used out of hand, so we shouldn't use it literally. But with some genuine goodwill to listen and to accomodate constructive contributions by fellow editors like De Wikischim we can easily rephrase it to "efforts to gain official recognition as regional language". It's ironic that these efforts have run counter the agenda of a manifest secessionist language movement in a neighboring country (with known results). -–Austronesier (talk) 12:10, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I find it nonconstructive that you suggest that I purposely only provided a single source in order to push trough a particular POV, going on to compare this with doing a Google search to prove a point. That's not at all the case here. There's (at the moment) a single source stating this, yes, but the idea that the amount of sources is intentionally limited and aimed at pushing through a particular POV, is complete nonsense. In addition to this, you're misrepresenting my position, because I'm not at all hellbent on keeping this particular characteristic in the lead. However, I do feel there have to be, at the very least, several reputable sources who omit this characteristic in their definition or defining of ″Limburgish″ to support leaving it out. The fact that you think it isn't primary characteristic, is not enough, you have to argue for it based on literature.Vlaemink (talk) 13:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Not at all do I suggest that you "purposely only provided a single source". I merely stated that you only provide one single source. Call it "not a strong case", that's all. (For a piece of text you have added and then re-added three times. That looks quite hellbent when good practice suggests WP:BRD .) It is impossible to continue this discussion when one bad-faith assumption flies after another. –Austronesier (talk) 13:20, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

In your comment, you suggest that I've ″cherry picked″ a characteristic from one single source with the intention to apply so much weight to this as to force its inclusion in the lead. If that was not your intention, then you could have said this without further implying bad faith on my part. Vlaemink (talk) 14:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

P. 109: "Wat voor de politieke erkenning de doorslag gegeven heeft, is dat...." Bakker's statement does not serve to answer the question "Wat is Limburgs?", but explains the government's rationale to recognize Low Saxon and Limburgs as regional languages. Bakker describes in the first place that Limburgish simply exists as something recognizable for the collective of its speakers: "Hoewel ze de dialectverschillen goed horen, hebben Limburgers toch het gevoel dat ze allemaal ‘Limburgs’ spreken. [...] ‘Hét Limburgs’ bestaat dus niet, maar ‘Limburgs’ kennelijk wel." (But NB in his dissertation he presents other observations which show that the northernmost (=Kleverlandish) dialects fair somewhat differently under the "you speak your dialect and I speak mine"-test.) –Austronesier (talk) 16:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

And the quote is preceded by Net als taalkundigen vindt de politiek een eenheidstaal kennelijk geen absolute voorwaarde (translation: "Just like linguists, politicians believe that the presence of a uniform language is not a strict precondition [for a regional language to be recognized as such]"). De Wikischim (talk) 17:58, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: I used Bakker (1997) to support the claim that a defining characteristic of Limburgish is that these dialects differ strongly from Standard Dutch and contributed little to its development. Whether this was or wasn't an argument for the Dutch government to support regional language status isn't relevant; it's a characteristic that Bakker clearly and explicitly ascribes to Limburgish. Do you you disagree with this reading? If so, why? Vlaemink (talk) 20:04, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Alternative classification as Middle/Central Franconian

Though the overall consensus is that Limburgish has its historical base in Low Franconian, some historical linguists have a somewhat nuanced view on this: [2], [3] ([..]Zuiver Oost-Frankisch heerscht: 1e. in het Land van Maas en Waal; 2e. in het Oostelijk gedeelte van Noord-Brabant; 3e. in het Oostelijk gedeelte van de prov. Antwerpen en (4e-6e) in het zoogenaamde mich-kwartier: 4e. het Oostelijk deel van Zuid-Brabant; 5e. Belgisch-Limburg; 6e. het grootste deel van Nederlandsch-Limburg, waar het dialect naar het Middel-Frankisch (Central Franconian languages) overhelt.; is this archaic Dutch text understandable enough for everyone here?)

I think it would be very worth adding this information to the "Classification and history" section (note: last year I made similar attempts to get this added to the corresponding article on the Dutch wiki, where it has been removed again, unfortunately). De Wikischim (talk) 10:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on these two sources (btw: do late 19th century texts really deem archaic to you? I've literally learned Dutch by reading Multatuli and linguistic texts about the Dutch East Indies from that period), this does not support an alternative classification as Central Franconian. Both speak of Central Franconian influence (or Limburg dialects leaning towards Central Franconian), and that's not what just some historical linguists, but is considered general wisdom. It is usually as an effect of the Keulse expansie in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern Period, i.e. the radation of Ripuarian linguistic features into the southeastern part of the Low Franconian speech area as a result of the political dominance of Cologne.

But there are indeed some classifications in German dialectology that plainly assigns South Low Franconian (both in Limburg and the Rhineland) to Central Franconian and thus within the High German dialect landscape (most notable by Wiesinger), by taking the opposite view, i.e. South Low Franconian dialects are Ripurian dialects that increasingly acquire Low Franconian traits when you move further to the west and north. The common textbook view in B, D and NL however sees the Benrath line as the western/northern boundary of Central Franconian (and so does the Raod veur't Limburgs).

We have a bit about this in South_Low_Franconian#Classification already. I strongly opt for this article not simply to be a fork of South Low Franconian, but rather primary intended to talk about the recognized regional language (that's also what the ISO-code is for). Hence, we don't have to talk too much about classification here (especially when the northern part of Limburg tells a completely different story). But that's just me. I know there are other opinions, but contrary to what I've heard in the past days, it takes more than a 2:1 !vote to dance the WP consensus tango. –Austronesier (talk) 08:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree (among others based on your explanation about the view on this within German dialectology - thanks for that) that the Low Franconian and South Low Franconian articles are likely more suitable places for this sort of info. Yet I think it shouldn't be left completely unmentioned here either, as it serves among others to clarify the relationship of Limburgish to (Standard) Dutch (which is now discussed throughout this article in a rather vague/unclear/inconsistent manner, which I think will be of little or no use to common readers). De Wikischim (talk) 09:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, this is part of Vlaemink's and my point that this article overall does not a good job of explaining anything (much of which has to do with its advocacy-driven edit history), regardless of the question of what this article actually should explain. –Austronesier (talk) 09:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree there are more striking issues with the current, rather poor version. Just one example is the relatively long section about "Meuse Rhenish", which seems of little or even no importance here. It's nothing but a proposed alternative classification of a big regiolectal area (including even Kleve and further), not supported by many linguists and therefore violating Original Research Policy. De Wikischim (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: No, it wouldn't be possible to add this information to the ″Classification and history″ section, because the sources provided cannot be used to support what is being claimed:

• Both of these sources are outdated, being published in 1892 and 1901 respectively; and hence do not meet Wikipedia standards on reliable sources.
• Neither of these sources makes any claims about ″Limburgish″ not being Low Franconian, they do not discuss this issue:

1. When Wieger (1901) mentions Middle Franconian, he simply states that the dialects in the southeast of Dutch Limburg are transitional — which is true.

2. When Leviticus (1892) mentions Middle Franconian, he simply states that the language of the Middle Dutch Sente Servas-text is closely related to Middle Franconian — which is true.

On a meta note: The way these sources were provided is inherently faulty: you searched for limburgs nederfrankisch middelfrankisch overgangsdialect (″Limburgish Low Franconian Middle Franconian transitional dialect″) in Google books and, most likely, did the same with the DBNL-database. In other words: you are searching for what you want to find, instead of what you want to know, in addition to (erroneously) taking fragments or excerpts out of their broader context. The inherent problems with this method have been stated before [4]. Vlaemink (talk) 10:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Indeed, some publications use the Uerdingen instead of the more common Benrath isoglos, but as you've correctly stated the northward expansion of the first is a development from the High Middle Ages. This could be briefly explained in the article (if it isn't already), but would then also require explicit mentioning of the fact that Old East Dutch / Old East Low Franconian, did not have these characteristics. To me, this seems like a fairly minute and uncontroversial detail to be addressed later, after the article as a whole is in a far better shape than it is now. Vlaemink (talk) 10:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Platdiets and related varieties

Platdiets of French-speaking Wallonia possibly isn't Limburgish. It is sometimes lumped with South East Limburgish of the Netherlands as well as some varieties of Flanders as well as including Düsseldorf, a city right into Germany. Sarcelles (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)