Talk:Carbine

Definition Needed

There usually is a definition of the term that the page is named for at the beginning of every page. As this one does not have a definition, and rather jumps straight into historical background, I found the page to be less useful. It took too much time to find a basic answer.

Someone with firearms knowledge please insert a two sentance or so definition of the term in the beginning of the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.225.54.173 (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. ¿What exactly is a “carbine”? I could call an M-2 a carbine, but that doesn’t (nearly) make it so. What’s really needed is a definition- “A Carbine is a rifle of less than XX inches (YYmm) that fires a standard intermediate rifle round (5.0MM or larger).” 65.100.56.249 (talk) 18:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC) A REDDSON.

How about "A carbine is a firearm with a shoulder stock and a shorter barrel that a musket or rifle."

Or simply "A carbine is a short barrelled longarm"?

It's not simply down to the ammo - some carbines shoot pistol calibre balls or cartridges, some musket balls or rifle cartridges, and some have their very own ammo. Surely the defining factor is the size, especially the length?

I guess the complication and confusion comes from the fact that they're in between pistols and rifles - some can be regarded as long barrelled pistols with a shoulder stock, and some are essentially cut-down rifles (or muskets or shotguns, whatever)86.149.50.199 (talk) 11:36, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Older comments

A gun that looks similar to a rifle but is slightly smaller and is designed to take the shorter and less powerful pistol cartridges.

This does not sound like the U.S. Military's M1 Carbine. Does anyone have a better description? --- Jagged

I do have a better term; A longarm that fires pistol cartridges are sub-machineguns, not carbines (irregarless appearances). 65.100.56.249 (talk) 18:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC) A REDDSON

With all due respect to the US Military, this has been the meaning of the word "carbine" since somewhere in the 17th century. But by all means add a second description ...

There were no cartridges in the 17th century.

No, but carbines still used pistol-sized ammo. I suppose I could get snotty and go find an early example of a carbine without a rifled barrel now! But if you really need to define things in terms of your personal experience, I'll let you win this one. Be happy

Yes carbine muskets do exist and I have changed the text to reflect this. However at least during the mid-1700's they did not use pistol sized rounds (pistols used 45-50 caliber, carbines 65 caliber and muskets 65-75 caliber). ---rmhermen

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Perhaps someone will incorporate the story of "Carbine" Williams before I get to it. <>< tbc

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/Talk

The example is incorrect - and the mistake is one I once made myself. The confusion arises from the fact that although the weapons have the same bore diameter, they are of different caliber.

The part about carbines generally being shorter, and (in olden days) intended for use on horseback, is correct.

The M1 Carbine is a distinct weapon from the M1 Rifle. They shoot different ammunition. The cartridge fired from the M1 Carbine has a small straight sided case and light bullets, and is a relatively low powered weapon (for instance, it is not legal for hunting deer in most states). The M1 Rifle fires 30-06 ammunition (much more powerful) and typically uses heavier bullets. Often used for hunting deer and even larger animals such as moose, elk, bear, and occasionally used on large and dangerous game in Africa.

As an interesting sidelight, the M1 Carbine was initially designed by "Carbine" Williams, while he was in prison. He did the work first clandestinely, and later, when he was discovered, with the knowledge of the prison warden. He was pardoned in part so he could continue development of the weapon, which had an unconventional action design. --Anon

Incorrect the story of David "Carbine" Williams was created of whole cloth by Hollywood. The short stroke gas piston he patented was used in the design of the M1 Carbine and he worked on the project at Winchester (along with several other noted Ordnance members) not in prison.--Tweak

This is a continuation of the discussion from the Ruger Police Carbine talk page:

Well I love the analogy between a vehicle gun and a mounted cavalry gun, it's almost lyrical. But the Wikipedia entry for carbine says that firearms chambered for pistol rounds are just shoulder-fired pistols, or something like that. Do we need to change that entry, or this one, to make the two consistent? RPellessier | (Talk) 07:33, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of doing just that. With the shortening of modern rifles down to what was formerly considered carbine sized, there's not much room between "normal" barrel lengths of 20" or so and the 16" minimum legal length (in the US). The definitive carbine for the 2nd half of the 20th century is probably the M1 Carbine, which fires what is basically a small bore, high velocity magnum pistol round. Even in the late 19th century the definition of the carbine began to change. The Winchester lever action rifles came in 20" and longer barrels in traditional rifle calibers, and also in shorter barrels, down to 16", in revolver cartridges such as .44-40 and .45 Colt. These short, pistol caliber lever actions are probably the truest ancestor of the Ruger Carbine, and in a sense they were cavalry weapons as well; the traditional cowboy or sheriff would carry a revolver on his belt, and a lever action rifle in the same caliber in a scabbard on his saddle. I think it's the aspect of portability that really defines the carbine now; a barrel between 16" and 18", a weight of 7 lbs. or less (without optics), and a simple, practical design. Of course, there is a wide range of different guns that fit this; hit www.ruger.com and compare and contrast the Ruger M77 Compact, the Mini-14, the standard 10/22, the Deerfield, and the Carbine. The first two are available in full power rifle cartridges (although not magnum rounds, as they would suffer significantly from the 16" and 18" barrels); the 10/22 in .22 LR, the Deerfield in .44 Magnum, and the Carbine in 9mm and .40 S&W. I would split those into three types of carbine; the full power ones as just "carbine", the 10/22 as a "rimfire carbine", and the Carbine and Deerflield as "pistol caliber carbines".

The pistol caliber carbine is distinct from an SMG in that SMGs generally have barrels under 10" and a folding stock and are designed for full auto fire (being a sub-machine gun). The original Thompson Annihilator, ancestor of all SMGs, had a 10" barrel, no buttstock, and vertical foregrip and pistol grip. Later versions were equipped with detatchable stocks, but the barrels remained at 10" for police and military use, the 16" barrel semi-automatic version was later added to make it saleable to civilians after the 1934 machine gun restrictions were inacted. Pistol caliber carbines often have fixed stocks, have longer barrels, and are often not selective fire (the M2 select fire variant of the M1 Carbine being a notable exception). Pistol caliber carbines have a rather odd niche; they are often not suited for hunting, as most pistol rounds are marginal at best (and therefore usually illegal) as hunting rounds; the .44 Magnum carbines being the big exception--it's an ideal short range deer gun. The pistol caliber carbines like the Ruger Carbine are great defensive weapons however; they are short enough to handle indoors, legal in many areas where pistols are not, they have very little recoil, and, unlike a handgun, they're easy to shoot accurately. The pistol rounds are also far more suited for urban areas than a rifle round like the 5.56 NATO, since the slow, fat pistol bullet will drop to the ground far sooner when fired level, and is much less likely to penetrate walls and cause unintentional injury.

I think the carbine entry should be expanded to emphasize compactness and portability as the defining characteristics, and then mention the different caliber classes and uses of modern carbines. scot 17:52, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Another possible addtion is the concept of the "ultra carbine". In the airgun world, where NFA rules on stocks and barrel lengths do not apply, there is a trend towards rifles that have super-short barrels, or pistols that are converted into short barrelled rifles. These generally have barrels in the range of 8 to 15 inches, and since they are almost all single shot, they are definately not SMGs. See http://www.davegstocks.com/showroom.cfm for a few examples. I might just have to see about rigging something like that for my Crosman 2240 pistol... scot 19:41, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

I've removed a lot of the garbage that was us-centric (at least in regards to the non-use or illegality of said weapons), and cleaned up formatting substantially. I have therefore removed the {{cleanup}} designation. There are some instances where additional wiki links could be added, and I will add an image for an M4 Carbine. Because of the assault weapons ban sunset, the strong language involving illegality is not pertinent. Additionally, to mention that snipers are now using .50 bmg's and longer barrels is just insipid. You don't snipe with a carbine, you snipe with a long range, heavy, long barreled rifle, like the SASR or DMR variants. Your friendly local gun nut, Avriette July 9, 2005 17:11 (UTC)

Sterling

The Sterling wasn't called a carbine. It was called a machine carbine, which is or was the British word for an SMG AllStarZ 00:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

"Another class of carbine is a semi-automatic version of a submachine gun"...so wouldn't "machine carbine" minus the "machine" part leave you with just a "carbine"? Granted, these would have been illegal in the UK for quite a while, but they are available on and off in parts of the US, depending on various state and federal legislation, and assorted executive orders banning import. scot 02:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Why Carbine?

I was hoping to find out why a carbine is called a carbine. there appears to be plenty of information as to what a carbine is but none on the origin of the name, in fact to quote the Encyclopedia Britannica :

'The word, the source of which is obscure, seems to have originated in the late or mid-16th century.'

Can anyone shed any light on this apparently unknown term? Or perhaps update the article for other people trying to work this one out?

Tim.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=carbine and http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Ca/Carbine.html have divergent etymologies, and http://personal.monm.edu/JRIVERS/carabiner.htm traces the term forward to "carabiner". scot 22:06, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we can shed some light, if certain Albanian users are not objecting (see carabinier discussion). The rifle is named after the soldiers, not the other way around. The soldiers "carabins" in 16th c. France were mercenaries from Greece and other parts of the Balkans. The word "carabin" literally means "seaman" in medieval Greek and comes from the Greek word "caravi" (boat, ship), since these soldiers were also seamen and were transported by ships (The "Marines" of that time). Reference: Sathas K. (1885) Greek stratiotai in the West and the revival of Greek tactics, in "Estia", vol. 19, No 492, p. 371, in Greek language.--Euzen (talk) 19:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Euzen please don't use outdated Greek authors that weren't even scholars.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

See my comments on Talk:Carabinier. Sathas' hypothesis is not reflected in modern sources and appears to be implausible and/or outdated. There are several other, competing etymologies. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:11, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

"Outdated" eh? Then give us the "modern" etymology. Especially the Albanian one.--Euzen (talk) 18:04, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Browning Hi-Power a carbine?

I don't see how the Browning Hi-Power is a carbine, so I'm commenting out the picture for now. --RavenStorm 01:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It's pointed out in the text. Many Hi-Powers were, like that one, made with provisions for a detachable stock, which would turn it into a carbine--ditto for the Luger, Mauser Broomhandle, and a number of other military pistols. Even a number of revovlers dating back to the black powder era were available with detatchable stocks. If you attach a stock, it's no longer a pistol, and it's shorter than a rifle, so it becomes a carbine. scot 14:06, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up. --RavenStorm 16:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Not a problem--I also altered the caption for the image to make it a bit more clear why a picture of what is typically considered a pistol is in the middle of a carbine article. scot 17:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Rifle implying Rifling?

A Carbine is a gun that does not require rifling. Does this definition work for anyone else?

Designated marksman

In the "Contemporary military forces" section, there's a paragraph that's completely devoted to the designated marksman concept....and I don't think that should be there. It veers way too far off-topic, better to cut and paste the paragraph to the designated marksman article or just delete it outright —Masterblooregard (talk) 01:27, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Steyr images?

I know there's a desire to keep the picture selections diverse, but would it not be better to either find an image much more illustrative of the size differences between the two Steyrs or replace it with a pair of weapons where the size difference is much more clear like the M-4/M-16?67.142.178.25 (talk) 06:58, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Slower ammunition?

"Many carbines are shortened versions of full rifles, firing the same ammunition at a lower velocity due to a shorter barrel length." This doesn’t make any sense. The same ammunition is going to have the same velocity (even muzzle velocity) because the shortened barrel isn’t enough to prevent the bullet from reaching maximum velocity by the end of the barrel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.50.255.30 (talk) 20:28, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

 Fixed

References

Hey everybody, we need references, the more, the better. This article is woefully light on inline citations and just screams of WP:OR. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 01:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

mobility

"They are typically issued to high-mobility troops such as special-operations soldiers and paratroopers, as well as to mounted, supply, or other non-infantry personnel whose roles do not require full-sized rifles."

I think the link between shorter barrel length and high-mobility should be made more explicitly, and especially why some roles *require* full-sized rifles should be explained, and the distinction between roles where carbines are used and long rifles. I think this intro paragraph is explaining the tradeoffs between accuracy and mobility, but also assuming the reader already knows about them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.143.141.227 (talk) 04:16, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

US Civil War text

Prior to, and during the American Civil War, a large number of carbines were developed, and used by the armies of both North and South. These carbines may be divided into categories, based on the types of ammunition which they used (paper cartridge, metallic rimfire, rubber cartridge), their action (lever action, breech-loading, muzzle-loading, and even one bolt action), or their caliber.

Metallic cartridge rimfire carbines used during the war include the .50 caliber Ball lever action carbine, the .52 caliber Joslyn Model 1862 and 1864 carbines, the .44 caliber Lee single shot carbine, the .54 caliber Palmer bolt action carbine, the .50 caliber Peabody carbine, the .52 caliber Sharps & Hankins Model 1862 carbine, the .52 caliber Spencer Repeating carbine, the .50 caliber Spencer Model 1865 carbine, the .52 caliber Starr Cartridge carbine, the .50 caliber Triplett & Scott carbine, various calibers of the New Haven Volcanic Rifle, the .50 caliber Warner carbine, and the .44 caliber Frank Wesson Military carbine.

Paper cartridge carbines used during the war include the (Confederate) .54 caliber Bilharz, Hall & Company rising breech carbine, the .36, .44 or .56 caliber Colt model 1855 revolving carbine, the .54 caliber Burnside carbine, the (Confederate) .58 caliber Cook and Brother carbine, the .52 caliber Cosmopolitan carbine, the British .577 caliber Enfield Pattern 1853 Cavalry carbine, the .50 caliber Gallager carbine, the .52 caliber Gibbs carbine, the .54 caliber Green carbine, the .52 caliber Gwyn & Campbell carbine, the .52 caliber Hall-North carbine, the .54 caliber Jenks "Mule Ear" carbine, the .58 caliber Lindner carbine, the .35 add .50 caliber Maynard carbines, the .54 caliber Merrill carbine, the (Confederate) .52 caliber Robinson Sharps carbine, the .52 caliber Sharps 1852 Saddle Ring carbine, the .52 caliber Sharps New Model carbine, and the .54 caliber Starr Percussion carbine.

The .50 caliber Smith carbine was unique, in using a rubber or metal cartridge in combination with a percussion cap. In contrast with the rimfire cartridge carbines listed above, the Smith cartridge did not include a primer.

I've moved this text from the article. It doesn't provide the average reader with any useful information. It might be better suited to an article specializing in weapons of the American Civil War. Rezin (talk) 03:57, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Carbines vs Submachine guns vs PDWs

• Larger than a submachine gun, [carbines] are harder to maneuver in tight encounters where superior range and stopping power at distance are not great considerations. Firing the same ammunition as rifles gives carbines the advantage of standardization over those personal defense weapons (PDWs) that require proprietary cartridges.
• A submachine gun (SMG) is an air-cooled, magazine-fed, automatic carbine designed to fire pistol cartridges. Submachine gun
• A personal defense weapon (PDW) is a compact select-fire firearm similar in most respects to a submachine gun. Most PDWs fire a small caliber, high velocity bottleneck cartridge, resembling a small or short rifle round. This gives the PDW better range, accuracy and armor-penetrating capability than submachine guns, which fire pistol-caliber cartridges. The class of weapon as it exists today evolved as a hybrid between a submachine gun and a carbine, retaining the compact size and ammunition capacity of the former while adding the power, accuracy and penetration of the latter. Personal defense weapon

It sounds like both SMGs and PDWs are types of carbines, while the text in this article (top) tries to contrast carbines with them. "Carbine" really just refers to the length of the barrel so they can be automatic, semi-automatic, or even single shot, and can fire any type of bullet cartridge (as opposed to a shotgun). Does that sound right? Rezin (talk) 22:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

CCU

Carbine Conversion Units (CCU) for semi-automatic pistols do exist these days - Why not to have a notion of them in PCC section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.163.159.72 (talk) 08:10, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Early carbines

Some of the information on early carbines and their use is badly phrased or just plain wrong. I will attempt to correct and expand this section. For example, early mounted-users of long-guns (as opposed to pistols) were petronells and harquebusiers (16th-17th centuries). These, and later cavalry, were given shorter-barrelled firearms because they could be loaded on horseback. They were fired from horseback, early dragoons carried full-sized muskets precisely because they dismounted to fire, other mounted troops of the time were expected to be able to shoot while mounted. French cavalry of the 17th century were expected to give a volley of carbine fire just before closing on the enemy with the sword when charging. At the time of the Napoleonic wars cavalrymen could not dismount in action without a direct order from an officer, thus the majority of cavalry of this period did not act as mounted infantry. By c. 1700 virtually all cavalry had abandoned the use of carbine fire in the charge, but mounted carbine fire was still employed by skirmishers. Indeed only the very heaviest cavalry, cuirassiers etc., were sometimes exempted from carrying carbines, except for some men in each troop for guard duties, precisely because they would not be called upon to engage in skirmishing. Even so, carbine fire was still used in larger-scale clashes in the Napoleonic era. At the Battle of Sahagun in the Peninsular War, two regiments of French cavalry tried to halt a charge of British Hussars with mounted carbine fire; it failed and the French were routed, but it was employed. Urselius (talk) 12:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Please create a separate page for Pistol-caliber carbine

Please Jku456 (talk) 17:48, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

If the section now labeled "Pistol-caliber carbine" gets large, it can be moved to a new, separate article. Showing multiple sources using this specific term repeatedly, as a distinct subject, would help. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 02:20, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

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Lost in Translation?

"It soon became standard issue in Soviet nations, although many of the nations with export Kalashnikovs retained the larger 7.62×39mm round." Would it make more sense if it said, "that export Kalashnikovs"? "with imported Kalashnikovs"? Not sure what is trying to be said here.

"Also, carbines are harder to maneuver in tight encounters where superior range and stopping power at distance are not great considerations." Wouldn't carbines be easier to maneuver in tight encounters? Especially since later on, "The smaller size and relative lighter weight of carbines makes them easier to handle in close-quarter situations such as urban engagements, when deploying from military vehicles, or in any situation where space is confined." Crowless (talk) 05:16, 7 May 2023 (UTC)