Talk:Montserrat

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Montserrat article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Caribbean: Montserrat Top‑importance

	Caribbean portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Caribbean, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to the countries of the Caribbean on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.CaribbeanWikipedia:WikiProject CaribbeanTemplate:WikiProject CaribbeanCaribbean articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Montserrat work group (assessed as Top-importance).

United Kingdom Mid‑importance

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

British Overseas Territories Top‑importance

	United Kingdom portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject British Overseas Territories, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of British Overseas Territories on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.British Overseas TerritoriesWikipedia:WikiProject British Overseas TerritoriesTemplate:WikiProject British Overseas TerritoriesBritish Overseas Territories articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Islands

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islands, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of islands on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslandsWikipedia:WikiProject IslandsTemplate:WikiProject IslandsIslands articles

Possible error

I'll leave people more familiar with the island to deal with this, but the article states that Saint Anthony Parish is too dangerous to inhabit, yet the community of Garibaldi Hill - located within the parish at its northwest corner according to Google Maps - is listed as a safe zone location and appears to be inhabited. Question is whether Saint Anthony Parish still exists as a political entity or if Garibaldi Hill is governed by Saint Peter Parish. On a related note it seems some parts of Saint Peter, such as St. George's Hill, fall within the exclusion zone. 23skidoo (talk) 21:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 September 2024

It has been proposed in this section that multiple pages be renamed and moved.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

– Montserrat (British Overseas Territory) is not the primary topic of Montserrat. Montserrat (mountain) in Catalonia, Spain is also commonly searched and read. Actually, by searching "Montserrat" in Google you will likely find that most results on the first page of search results are on Montserrat (mountain) in Catalonia, Spain. John Smith Ri (talk) 06:30, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Curiously, the top hit for my search was Montserrat (typeface), although I also had results for the BOT and the mountain. The BOT article seems to get considerably more page views, but otherwise there's a case to be made here. CMD (talk) 07:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The page views at the presumed primary topic are affected by the >5k incoming links. WikiNav for last month indicates 46% (+ possibly another 5% filtered) of measurable incoming views came from other articles, ~30k/month. The combination of traffic that we know comes from search engines and the traffic we don't know the source of amounts to about the same volume. We know from other examples that search engines would also modify their behavior if we were to change our navigation, but we don't know the ratios until it happens, we don't really know the exact organic level of reader traffic interested in a presumed primary topic unless/until we make a change to navigation to be able to measure it better. --Joy (talk) 11:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. The territory is the primary topic. O.N.R. ^(talk) 07:29, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I first thought of the human name, and then looked at the population of this island, this has strong Saba vibes, but I'll try to explicitly fight this bias :) and just look at the data.

WikiNav for Montserrat shows the hatnote, though not particularly high up (I'll follow up with historical clickstream data later). WikiNav for the disambiguation page shows a healthy spread of topics, though some of it does go back to the presumed primary topic. Mass views:

* All-time mass views for all topics linked from Montserrat (disambiguation)

* All-time mass views for all topics linked from Montserrat (given name)

* All-time mass views for all topics linked from Montserrat (surname)

So the island gets 2,287 views/day, mountain gets 308/day, the Christian pilgrimage site in Catalonia articles get 189/day for the abbey and 154/day for the concept, Montserrat Caballé 644/day, Montserrat Lombard 149/day, Montserrat Oliver 85/day etc. Without further looking into the long tail, that's 2,287 : 1,529 or 1.5 : 1 already. So that's in the suspicious territory, though still reasonably strong. If we were to proceed with the move, the island would still absolutely have to go to the top common section (MOS:DABCOMMON).

It would be good to have a more coherent argument on long-term significance - is the British territory something that the average English reader is strongly associating with this term? --Joy (talk) 09:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The mountain and the Christian pilgrimage site in Catalonia is somehow the same place. Besides, it is unlikely that non-British English readers (especially non-native users of English) know such an isolated island and territory with only thousands of residents (there are much more people living around Montserrat mountain). John Smith Ri (talk) 10:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, British Montserrat is somehow named after Montserrat mountain. John Smith Ri (talk) 10:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here's what I found in the clickstream archive:

Snapshot of clickstreams from Montserrat to hatnote and other possibly ambiguous destinations

From meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream:

clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 480
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 138
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 112
Montserrat Main_Page other 67
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 16
total: 24808 to 214 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 594
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 148
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 130
Montserrat Main_Page other 68
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 14
total: 26853 to 209 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 514
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 138
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 118
Montserrat Main_Page other 85
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 12
total: 24545 to 209 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 439
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 121
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 121
Montserrat Main_Page other 67
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 11
total: 24687 to 211 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 421
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 144
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 125
Montserrat Main_Page other 45
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 12
total: 27820 to 229 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 390
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 117
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 105
Montserrat Main_Page other 74
total: 24899 to 214 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 478
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 153
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 127
Montserrat Main_Page other 59
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 16
total: 29639 to 226 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 507
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 150
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 134
Montserrat Main_Page other 87
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 15
total: 27135 to 221 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 508
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 151
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 138
Montserrat Main_Page other 72
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 12
total: 31254 to 230 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 463
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 135
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 122
Montserrat Main_Page other 51
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 15
total: 25844 to 214 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-07.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 481
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 122
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 112
Montserrat Main_Page other 45
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 16
total: 27073 to 220 identified destinations

clickstream-enwiki-2024-08.tsv:

Montserrat Montserrat_(disambiguation) link 434
Montserrat Santa_Maria_de_Montserrat_Abbey link 96
Montserrat Virgin_of_Montserrat link 93
Montserrat Main_Page other 70
Montserrat Montserrat_(mountain) other 13
total: 24728 to 217 identified destinations

So every month, about five hundred readers consistently click the hatnote. A couple of hundred a month check out the Christian eponym topics - these may or may not be happier with a more prominent link, we can't tell from these stats alone.

A dozen readers generate these 'other' clickstreams towards the mountain - there's no link, so they have to manually go to their destination. It's usually a worrying sign for bad navigation when there's enough of these that it shows up in the stats (and at that level there's a substantial chance the anonymization threshold of <10 is also hiding more of these).

I've included the similar kind of clickstreams towards the Main Page for comparison, with those readers we don't know if they went back to the start because of a problem in navigation or if they just wanted to go there to read the news or start fresh or whatever the reason there may be. --Joy (talk) 10:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's also Google Books Ngrams that can tell us which words most commonly appear next to 'Montserrat' in books. Looks like the usual suspects, with a recent spike probably coinciding with the 1990s disaster. Mentions of Caballe are visible during her lifetime, too. When I went deeper into the "of" and "and" variants, like this, it looks like a lot of the earlier spikes are old typos for stuff at list of rulers of Montferrat. Speaking of which, we have a distinguishing hatnote for that, too, and that gets some traffic, too.

Snapshot of clickstreams from Montserrat to Montferrat

From meta:Research:Wikipedia clickstream:

clickstream-enwiki-2023-09.tsv:

clickstream-enwiki-2023-10.tsv:

clickstream-enwiki-2023-11.tsv:

clickstream-enwiki-2023-12.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 70

clickstream-enwiki-2024-01.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 222

clickstream-enwiki-2024-02.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 198

clickstream-enwiki-2024-03.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 224

clickstream-enwiki-2024-04.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 245

clickstream-enwiki-2024-05.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 211

clickstream-enwiki-2024-06.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 207

clickstream-enwiki-2024-07.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 220

clickstream-enwiki-2024-08.tsv:

Montserrat Montferrat link 202

--Joy (talk) 11:09, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The hole in the stats at the start looks to be because the distinguishing hatnote was only added on December 22 last year, in this edit. While there's some credence to thinking some of these might be misclicks because of the prominent placement of hatnotes, this pattern still does seem to add to the suspicion that there's a substantial chunk of readers who may have issues with our navigation here. --Joy (talk) 11:13, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A bit of experimenting with ngram search queries later, here's a graph that might be more relevant: the Marquis confusion is still visible, then we see a lot of mentions of the island as such, likewise for Virgin and Lady. This would lead me to say that Montserrat (island) (island of Montserrat) would be a better choice for disambiguation if we were to do that. There's a variety of mentions of just "Montserrat" that seem to generally mean the island being listed together with other nearby places, though the volume of these is still comparable to the volume of e.g. mentions of the monastery. The question is how to summarize this mass of references. It would be nice if we could know how much of this comes from mundane statistical references and how much from customary references which would lead the average reader to assume the word as such means the island. --Joy (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, justified primary topic. 162 etc. (talk) 15:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support, although I'd generally give a country an edge in topics like this, Montserrat is a little too small of a "country" and the mountain and associated pilgrimmage so important in literature that perhaps there's no PRIMARYTOPIC.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: more pageviews for the territory and what Joy said (I think :D). YorkshireExpat (talk) 17:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The page views (as Yorkshire indicates) show the island gets more than five times as many views as the mountain. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 18:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]