Wikipedia talk:Requests for arbitration/Wareware/Evidence

Since I was part of some of the edit teams in question, I would like to add some evidence to this page, but I need some time to look through the diffs once again. I could submit evidence until the end of this week. Is that acceptable or will it be too late by then? Pharlap 14:01, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to submit evidence at your own pace - it will be considered up until when the case is closed, which probably won't be happening for a few weeks at least. -- Grunt 🇪🇺 14:21, 2005 May 24 (UTC)

I'm sorry that it took me so long to provide the promised diffs, but unfortunately I was distracted by some business trips. But I'm glad to see that you still didn't start the decision-making.

Eventhough my list of diffs is quite lengthy, (afterall, there are several months and several articles to look into) they are still incomplete, (e.g. I hadn't had time yet to complete the diffs on "black supremacy"), but i will try to provide them asap.

Nevertheless, a certain pattern of deeceevoices behavior is certainly already visible. Pharlap 03:01, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

(user 84.178.218.12 is me) forgot to sign in, sorry.

An outside perspective

I've been aware of both Wareware and DeeCeeVoice for some time. I think there may be a cultural conflict involved here -- as well as other factors. DC mentioned "signifying", and as a white who lived in a predominantly Afro-American community for a number of years I know exactly what she is describing. A few years ago I had a student whom I would easily have assumed came from "my neighborhood" -- because he generally fenced with me in class. I enjoyed it because I knew what was going on, but I kind of wondered how an "uninitiated" teacher would react. I suspected that some of my colleagues might have felt themselves under some kind of subtle attack, and I kind of picked up "What's going on?" vibes from other "uninitiated" members of the class. (Call me an SOB, but I never clued the clueless in -- I was having too much fun.)

On the other hand, I've picked up what I regard as somewhat hostile vibes from Wareware -- vibes that may have come up entirely out of my own ego-centricity and lack of self confidence. (And/or I may have brought some hostility down on myself somehow.) It's been a few months since our paths have crossed and I don't remember anything specific except that I started translating his/her name as "Beware."

One of the comments/criticisms I frequently heard from Chinese when I was living in Taiwan was that Americans never bother to think about how their remarks may make their counterparts feel. Could that be a relevant observation here? P0M 06:06, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Whoops. Now I realize that WareWare is Chinese, and from Taiwan. I think he would fall under the same criticism that my Taiwanese friends directed against Americans. I just went back through the most recent 1000 edits to the Race/Discussion page and checked out WareWare's remarks. I was surprised to find how regularly they struck me as being essentially ad hominem in nature, disrespectful, and not open to finding a kernel of truth in something that might have seemed unclear or doubtful to him. P0M 06:41, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Look, I've supported, and continue to support, Wareware's receiving a sanction for his racist remarks. However, it's just ridiculous to state that DC is entitled to greater latitude than others in making insulting remarks because she is in fact "signifying." It's also unbelievably condescending toward African-Americans. If DC is allowed to "signify," then so is Wareware. What's to prevent Wareware from claiming that in his ancestral village in Taiwan it is considered insulting to be polite, and considered polite to cast insults? He wasn't being racist! He was demonstrating the highest respect for DC! Ridiculous. Wareware has to answer for his remarks, and so would DC if she made inappropriate ones. Babajobu 07:00, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

You know, on second thought, the whole "signifying" line of thought has led me to reconsider some things. I definitely stand by my assertion that Wareware must be disciplined for making outrageous, racist remarks. However, perhaps there truly is a cultural variable here that we hadn't considered. DC's remark about Wareware's race and the size of his genitalia may be an acceptable expression of DC's cultural heritage. Likewise, we must also stop to consider that in Chinese culture (including Taiwanese culture) a great premium is placed on respectful behavior between strangers and acquaintances. It is only between Chinese people who are more intimate with one another that more relaxed behavior, including verbal jousting and playful insults, is the norm. Perhaps Wareware, by insulting DC in what seemed to us "inappropriate" terms, was actually expressing a warm acceptance of DC, a willingness to welcome her into Wareware's circle of intimates. In Chinese culture this is quite an honor!! Wow! Still, I must admit that I'm rather culturally insensitive, and think that Wareware must answer for his persistent racist remarks, even if they carried an utterly diffent meaning within the context of his culture. Babajobu 07:43, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Did I "state that DC is entitled to greater latitude"? Each of us needs to look at himself/herself to try to understand both our own true motivations and also how our communication styles are interpreted by others. It is almost inevitable that each person naively thinks his/her way of doing things is "the only right, the only natural" way to do things. The worst cultural mismatches occur over things that we are not even consciously aware of doing -- but that people from some other culture "do the wrong way." DCV needs to look at the cost of "signifying" to people who don't have a clue about what's going on. Wareware needs to take a look at himself, too. That is, of course, if each one wants to. One of the benefits of relaxation, deep relaxation, is that it allows one to perceive oneself more clearly. With clearer perception comes the possibility of growth. Whether either of them wants growth or not is not for me to approve or condemn, but I think most people find growth desirable. My attempt to give each of them something to look at may be far off the mark, as you suggest. In that case my nugatory remarks will be nothing but random blasts of hot air, maybe not sweet smelling but not very toxic. P0M 08:19, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

Tacky

I decided to return to this matter just to say how incredibly tacky and incompetent the Arb Com's handling of this matter has been. I found out that this matter had been dropped (who knows when) after inquiring about it on someone's talk page. I received absolutely no notice. And, to date, neither, apparently, has User:Wareware. This has been a colossal waste of my time and of the people who were kind and concerned enough to render assistance in this matter.

To my way of thinking, the Arb Com dropped the ball -- in more ways than one. At least you didn't require me to reformat the copious info presented in the RfC for this process. The singular good thing is Pharlap's wasted time and effort in compiling an utterly meaningless assemblage of completely unrelated and, again, out-of-context bullcrap -- as if my comments anywhere on this website have anything at all to do with the racist Wareware's Tourette's-like comportment.

I can't say this experience has inspired any confidence or respect on my part for the arbitration process. Frankly, you guys suck. *x* deeceevoice 06:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)